Israeli Ministry of Immigrant Absorption pulls "offensive" ads

[ag]

The scandal, to the extent there is scandal, is not about Christmas (which, BTW, I happen not to celebrate). It's the attitude to the diaspora Jews, who've continuously been, to a surprising extent, full of all sort of sentimental feelings towards what they (or, at least, most of them) think is a Jewish state. Of course, the adds make it clear that it isn't: from the standpoint of it's own government, it is the state of the Israeli Jews alone, diaspora Jews being just another breed of the goyim.

Of course, as far as I am concerned, the Israeli government is right: Israel has nothing to do w/ the diaspora Jews, it's not a Jewish state, but an Israeli Jewish state alone.

[ag]

Christmas is a holiday dedicated to peace on earth and goodwill to men.

Christmas is a religious holiday of a single religion. To not see that shows, mostly, just poor education.

Not that I have anything against Christmas. But, obviously, for non-Christian faithful celebrating it is usually considered sacrilegious.

[ag]

Well, sure. A lot of non-Christians celebrate it as a secular holiday - many of the secular Jews surely do. But the truly faithful don't - hence my choice of the word.

[ag]

96% of Americans celebrate Christmas in some way, and 76-83% of Americans are Christian (definitions and survey results vary somewhat), which means that the vast majority of non-Christians celebrate Christmas. Virtually the only people who don't celebrate Christmas are Jews who make a point of not celebrating it, recent Asian immigrants, Muslims, and small groups of ultra-Fundie Christians who are put off by the pagan rituals that have seeped in since ancient times.

I don't celebrate Christmas (ok, I am Mexican, but, neither did I celebrate it when I lived in the US). Yeah, I am of Jewish origin, but I am not religious and I don't make any points. It is just that I have chosen to stick to one non-personal holiday a year - the New Year. I even put up a tree - I just decorate it on Dec. 26th ) So, my kids have to wait an extra week for the gifts - big deal On the good side, I get to buy them at the discount

[ag]

There is nothing wrong w/ Christians celebrating Christmas. There isn't anything wrong w/ non-religious people celebrating Christmas either (though I choose not to - for a whole bunch of personal reasons). But for a religious and/or simply traditional Jew doing so is, basically, a public denial of the Jewish identity, an act of High Treason, if you wish. Few Jews who adhere to dietary restrictions would celebrate Christmas - they make a point of celebrating Hanukkah instead. Among the secular Jews it is mixed - but, in general, celebrating Christmas is a sign not merely of secularism, but of serious degree of assimilation.

There is a difference between not following Jewish traditions and following alien traditions: sort of the same difference as between eating pork and getting baptized (BTW, Israel takes a serious view of this distinction: you can run a pig farm and eat your pigs daily, cooked in milk, and still be eligible for Israeli citizenship as a Jew; get baptized, and you are excluded).

It's not just the Jews, for that matter. Many (Orthodox Christian) Russians would consider it High Treason and Latin heresy to celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25th (instead of Jan. 7th).

Jewish identity has survived in Western countries for so long precisely because Jews refused to conform to the mores and traditions of the outside (Christian) world. I am, mostly, amused that you are so shocked by this: it seems to me just evidence of extremely poor education.

[ag]

My dearest BSB,

1. I am not much of a part of Jewish tradition in pretty much any sense other than considering the gefilte fish and farshmak supreme heights of culinary perfection (and, perhaps, occasionally singing some garbled Yiddish songs to my daughters as lullabies  - froylakh zol zayn - or swearing in the same language). If anything, I come from the Soviet Communist tradition - that includes my choice of holidays and timing for tree decoration ) If I actually organize the celebration under that tree I decorate on Dec. 26th, I eat the Russian salad and drink vodka (with a side of good Ukrainian bacon - another culinary glory about which, apparently, one of my ancestors used to remark that "everything that's nice and pleasant isn't for the Jews").

2. Thus, I haven't been expounding about my own views of Christmas, but, rather, trying to explain you how it seems from the standpoint of some of my more traditional fellow tribesmen.

3. It is undoubtedly true that from a Jewish standpoint there is a gross difference between not following Jewish traditions and accepting gentile traditions. It is one thing to eat pork (in fact, to make a point of including pork in every meal) and quite another thing to get some of that red wine that symbolizes some shlimazl's blood in Christian services.

[ag]

(continued)

4. As far as I am concerned, assimilation is a wonderful thing - except, as a rootless cosmopolitan (in the wonderful definition of Comrade Stalin), I haven't yet chosen what to assimilate into. However, this is a decidedly uncommon view among my fellow tribesmen, who tend to view it with great dislike. And, if you'd think about it, had that view not been the dominant among the Jews throughout the history, there would have been no Jews today. The likes of myself are not part of the community, and our offspring will be even less Jewish, till within a few generations one of my great-grand-children becomes an imam and another a Shinto or Hindu priest (hey, I myself have some partiality to Ganesh - a god w/ such a belly can't be bad). Do I personally see any problem w/ it - not at all, I'd be delighted. But I wouldn't announce that delight even to my own grandmother - she might disinherit me.

5. Same about intermarriage. Actually, I am a mishling, as is my wife. If my daughters marry Chinese Muslims or Zulus I won't object in the least. But it is a decidedly uncommon view among both American Jews and Jews in general - nothing particularly Israeli about it. Most Jewish mothers (and, for that matter, fathers) would prefer a "nice Jewish boy/girl" to anyone else.

[ag]

(continue)

6. But enough about myself. Time to take up some of your concerns.

7. There is nothing rational or irrational about celebrating any holiday on any particular day - it's a personal choice and preference. If some (in fact, quite a few) people don't like to measure time using the callendar introduced by a certain 16th century pope, preferring the version introduced by a Roman dictator, I don't see why that offends YOU that much. They are not telling you when to celebrate the Feast of the Dormition of the Holy Virgin, are they?

8. In fact, that's the most remarkable. All I (and others) have been trying to do is to explain the reason for the common Jewish attitude to a particular Christian holiday. No Jew (unlike some evangelicals) actually objects to Christians eating turkey and going to the movies on a certain day in December - they just prefer doing those things on other days. No Jew is forcing you to fast on the Day of Atonement - they will even hire a shabbes goy to work in the store, so that you can continue buying your bacon and cheese on that day in peace. It is, however, making you explode in the high tantrum at the Jewish perfidy that some people don't want to take party in a perfectly arbitrary, and, if I may, often rather tacky, celebration.

[ag]

(continued)

9. To sum up, I find it hard to explain your righteous explosion with anything other than some deep-seated feeling of anymosity to all those who are not like you. Yes, Jews were the original European "migrants", who refused to assimilate and tried to lead separate lives in the middle of the Christian world and Christian civilization. This has always brought my ancestors nothing but pogroms, massacres and all sort of other tsores. But I thought that blaiming these particular victims has been recognized as non-kosher by "civilized" people, at least after 1945 - that attitudes is now reserved for Muslims, Hispanics and other modern "migrants". Or am I wrong?

10. It is not I, who is ignorant here. I know my history, I can look at the world from multiple viewpoints (even from your own ) ). That is why your own pristine ignorance is so amusing to me. Unfortunately, that ignorance is exactly what has fed the basest anti-semitism for centuries.

[ag]

Do you believe that hoisting a Christmas Tree, and exchanging gifts among friends and family constitutes "high treason" or not? If that is something you don't believe, it is odd that you stated it rather matter of factly.

Me? I have committed my own share of acts of High Treason - too many to bother about them anymore

But we were talking not about myself, but about the common Jewish perception. It varies, but for the very traditional view, participating in a Christian religious celebration is, obviously beyond scandalous. Participating in a pre-Christian (pagan) celebration is even worse. It is better than, say, getting baptized and taking a communion in a church (that is, indeed, High Treason, that implies excommunication), but it is a serious sin.

[ag]

Celebrating a holiday several days after the winter solstice has been a Western tradition since before Jesus Christ walked the earth. Germanic peoples have hoisted trees before they were Christianized by the Romans. This simply isn't about accepting "gentile traditions." It is about accepting "Western tradition."

This is where you ignorance shows the most. Had the Jews been willing to accept these "Western traditions" they would have completely disappeared over a 1000 years ago. This refusal to accept is EXACTLY what they've been persecuted for all these centuries - and what they went to the gladiator ring, the fire of the inquisition and, in the end, to the gas chambers, to die for.  I am surprized that you find it acceptable to express such, fudnamentally, pogromschik opinions in public.

And, of course, if Christian celebration is an apostasy, a pagan celebration is a lot worse.

[ag]

BTW, of course, all this is absolutely irrelevant to the original point of this thread. The reason Israeli government stopped this campaign has nothing to do w/ Christmas (they couldn't care less what BSB or anybody else thinks about this being a Day of Peace - that registers with them even less than the Jewish viewpoint of the thing w/ BSB). 

The reason is that it is, fundamentally, offensive to the diaspora Jews and puts in perspective the fundamental difference in both self-identification and intrinsic interests of the two communities (the one in the diaspora and the one in Israel). It's not that the Israeli government cares much about the (non-Israeli) Jews (it doesn't - in fact, it wholeheartedly dislikes them) but it recognizes in them the most important constituency that provided both material and political support to the Israeli state. Losing that support for the moment is inexpedient. That's all.

[ag]

My dearest BigSkyPogrom,

Why do you care what Jews think of Christmas? Jews don't care what you think of Simchas Toyre or Purim. Let people be different from you - I'd have hoped, at least the Jews would have been allowed that, given the price they've paid for this right to be different, even if you won't leave other minorities alone.

[ag]

One of the ads shows a grandchild being asked what holiday they were celebrating? The child answers  "Christmas."

What's wrong with celebrating Christmas?

Maybe that it's another religion's holiday? This really isn't that hard.

He is ok w/ every religion, as long as they acknowledge Jesus as the Savior. Make sure, you put that statue in your Hindu temple.

[ag]

One of the ads shows a grandchild being asked what holiday they were celebrating? The child answers  "Christmas."

What's wrong with celebrating Christmas?

Maybe that it's another religion's holiday? This really isn't that hard.

He is ok w/ every religion, as long as they acknowledge Jesus as the Savior. Make sure, you put that statue in your Hindu temple.

AFAIK, worship of Jesus isn't uncommon among Hindus. It's a very adaptable religion.

That's the difference between monotheism and politheism for you )

[ag]

Oddly enough, today I came across a Christmas tree sugar cookie that had been baked in a bakery that was kosher-certified.

Well, this, pretty much ensures it wasn't run by atheist Jews ))

Apparently, pretty much all businessmen would happily let a rabbi certify them, at least, if it would cost them nothing (if the services of the rabbi are paid for by some Jewish group, whose members would like to be able to enjoy the services of a certain establishment). Indeed, it seems like there is no reason not to: you become acceptable to a new set of customers. However, many of my fellow atheist Jews would rather loose money than let the bearded guys inspect them ))

[ag]

Btw, What does )) mean? I see you and I think other Russians use it and have no clue as to its purpose.

Nothing. It's just a reiterated smiley. I always forget that this forum makes :  )  into a yellow face.

[ag]

3. It is undoubtedly true that from a Jewish standpoint there is a gross difference between not following Jewish traditions and accepting gentile traditions. It is one thing to eat pork (in fact, to make a point of including pork in every meal) and quite another thing to get some of that red wine that symbolizes some shlimazl's blood in Christian services.

That is a rather ham handed statement....

Are you going to claim that that guy didn't have some major bad (shlim) luck (mazl)? Or is your objection to use of the world "to symbolize" rather than the verb "to be"?

[ag]

Christ's death was not bad luck, but rather a fulfillment of prophesy and redeems our sins.

Well, I hope you won't insist that this also becomes the Jewish interpretation of this story?

[ag]

Some of his opinions have survived, and, they show him to be a good man and decent human being.

Well, in that case he surely was a classic shlimazl

[ag]

The ad was offensive because Christmas is a holiday dedicated to peace on earth and goodwill to men.

The correct statement would be that "Christmas is a holiday that some people (mostly Christians) believe is dedicated to peace on earth and goodwill of men. Other people (including many Christians, as well as most religious non-Christians) believe Christmas to be a religious holiday of one faith. And still other people (probably, most, and definitely most secular types of whatever origin) believe it to be dedicated to shopping and good eating". Anybody, who is not proud of finding his strength in his own ignorance would have appreciated that.

[ag]

If the girl in ad the had learned the Christmas spirit, that is to her credit.

In any case, you should have noticed that the question that the Israeli ad in question raises wasn't so much celebrating Christmas, as noting the failure of the kid to recognize it is Hanukkah (the candles are pointedly behind the grandparents, who are cleaerly asking the girl about this particular celebration). This is obvious to any, even completely secular, Jew - looking at the screen even for 15 seconds you recognize all the symbols.  The child fails - and it is, obviously, an unpleasant failure for all the adults involved.

It is also obvious that the parents in question do not celebrate Christmas, so the child's reaction is fully coming from outside the family. Objecting to the child's indoctrination by an alien ideology is a normal reaction of any parent (my parents weren't happy when I cam home spouting Soviet propaganda either, even though it was all apparently dedicated to peace on earth). Children cannot make the sorts of judgements that are invovled in religious conversion independently - that's where family comes in.

Once again, if you were not so much in love with your own militantly ingorant view of the world, you would have recognized it before even begining to post. Narrowmindedness is, indeed, a horrible thing. You are not preaching peace and understanding, despite what it seems to you. You are preachign the spirit of hatred - and that is exactly what, I believe, you (personally you, not the others) are celebrating every Christmas. Jesus would not have done that )

[ag]

I would take the strongest issue w/ both statements of milhouse24, not only as a (secular) Jew, but also as a member of the anglophone Mexican community. But, well, I guess, wtf is the more appropriate reaction. I would have thought that, at least in places like the US and at least wrt to the Jews, we've resolved this post-1945. It seems, we haven't.

[ag]

So, let me just be clear. Unless invited by somebody else to a party, I do not celebrate Christmas (either on Dec. 25th or on Jan. 7th), Thangsigiving, 4th of July, Mexican Independence Day, Israeli Independence Day, Russian Independence Day, Cinco de Mayo, Victory in Europe, Memorial Day, Mother's Day, Father's day, Labor Day (either in May or in September), Easter, Passover, Id al Fitr, Hanukkah, Kurban Bairam, Russian Revolution Day, Purim, Dewali, Queen's birthday (either in April or in June), Columbus Day/Dia de Hispanidad, Dia de la Raza or any of the other numerous secular or religious holidays the world has invented (bar the New Year, which I sometimes celebrate several times a year ) ). And to anybody who doesn't like that I would strongly suggest that they go f themsleves.

[ag]

It's your freaking business how you call a tree at your home. I call it a New Year Tree, and if you call it the Holy Virgin Tree or St. Francis Ganesh Tree, or whatever, it doesn't concern me in the least. Has anyone on this planet insisted you call your tree anything other than a Christmas tree? If not, what exactly are you objecting to? Who is trying to restrict how anyone else celebrates any holiday? Or are you talking about government, rather than individual, celebrations?

As for me, I have no problem whatsoever w/ the Palestinian flag. It would look nice on a Menorah - but I don't have one ))