Israeli Ministry of Immigrant Absorption pulls "offensive" ads

[BigSkyBob]

Jewish attitudes towards Christmas are offensive because, apparently, Christmas has feelings.  Christmas is a highly sensitive individual.

What happened to stamping out political correctness?  Or is freedom of religion only applicable when it serves to justify homophobia?

Freedom of religion includes the freedom of Jews to vilify Jesus Christ. What freedom of religion does not include is moral absolution for any theological stand, including the vilification of Jesus Christ.

The ad was offensive because Christmas is a holiday dedicated to peace on earth and goodwill to men. It is to the credit of those that observe the holiday. If the girl in ad the had learned the Christmas spirit, that is to her credit. That it was treating as appalling, is offensive to all those that share the Christmas spirit of peace on earth and goodwill to man.

[ag]

Some of his opinions have survived, and, they show him to be a good man and decent human being.

Well, in that case he surely was a classic shlimazl

[ag]

The ad was offensive because Christmas is a holiday dedicated to peace on earth and goodwill to men.

The correct statement would be that "Christmas is a holiday that some people (mostly Christians) believe is dedicated to peace on earth and goodwill of men. Other people (including many Christians, as well as most religious non-Christians) believe Christmas to be a religious holiday of one faith. And still other people (probably, most, and definitely most secular types of whatever origin) believe it to be dedicated to shopping and good eating". Anybody, who is not proud of finding his strength in his own ignorance would have appreciated that.

[ag]

If the girl in ad the had learned the Christmas spirit, that is to her credit.

In any case, you should have noticed that the question that the Israeli ad in question raises wasn't so much celebrating Christmas, as noting the failure of the kid to recognize it is Hanukkah (the candles are pointedly behind the grandparents, who are cleaerly asking the girl about this particular celebration). This is obvious to any, even completely secular, Jew - looking at the screen even for 15 seconds you recognize all the symbols.  The child fails - and it is, obviously, an unpleasant failure for all the adults involved.

It is also obvious that the parents in question do not celebrate Christmas, so the child's reaction is fully coming from outside the family. Objecting to the child's indoctrination by an alien ideology is a normal reaction of any parent (my parents weren't happy when I cam home spouting Soviet propaganda either, even though it was all apparently dedicated to peace on earth). Children cannot make the sorts of judgements that are invovled in religious conversion independently - that's where family comes in.

Once again, if you were not so much in love with your own militantly ingorant view of the world, you would have recognized it before even begining to post. Narrowmindedness is, indeed, a horrible thing. You are not preaching peace and understanding, despite what it seems to you. You are preachign the spirit of hatred - and that is exactly what, I believe, you (personally you, not the others) are celebrating every Christmas. Jesus would not have done that )

[milhouse24]

There is nothing wrong w/ Christians celebrating Christmas. There isn't anything wrong w/ non-religious people celebrating Christmas either (though I choose not to - for a whole bunch of personal reasons). But for a religious and/or simply traditional Jew doing so is, basically, a public denial of the Jewish identity, an act of High Treason, if you wish. Few Jews who adhere to dietary restrictions would celebrate Christmas - they make a point of celebrating Hanukkah instead. Among the secular Jews it is mixed - but, in general, celebrating Christmas is a sign not merely of secularism, but of serious degree of assimilation.

There is a difference between not following Jewish traditions and following alien traditions: sort of the same difference as between eating pork and getting baptized (BTW, Israel takes a serious view of this distinction: you can run a pig farm and eat your pigs daily, cooked in milk, and still be eligible for Israeli citizenship as a Jew; get baptized, and you are excluded).

It's not just the Jews, for that matter. Many (Orthodox Christian) Russians would consider it High Treason and Latin heresy to celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25th (instead of Jan. 7th).

Jewish identity has survived in Western countries for so long precisely because Jews refused to conform to the mores and traditions of the outside (Christian) world. I am, mostly, amused that you are so shocked by this: it seems to me just evidence of extremely poor education.

That is what is frustrating with Jewish people in America and Europe if what you say is true.  If Jews are discriminating against Christians because they do not want to assimilate with non-Jewish society and Gentiles.  If America is about accepting people of all Faiths, Races, and cultures, and creating a melting pot with cross-cultural learning, the anti-Christian, and anti-Christmas are unwelcome and un-American. In essence, Jews are choosing to segregate from the Christian society or American society, instead of being forced into segregation.   If American society is to progress, then trust must be created through acceptance.  We can accept Muslim traditions and holidays, we can accept Jewish traditions and holiday, but why is it not okay to accept and celebrate Christian traditions and holidays?

Should Easter eggs be renamed "holiday eggs" and Matzo crackers renamed "holiday crackers" or Menorahs renamed "holiday candles" or Christmas trees renamed "holiday trees" or Thanksgiving turkey renamed "holiday turkey."  Jews don't have to celebrate Christmas, but they shouldn't seek to eradicate Christmas from the lexicon or prevent others from celebrating Christmas by name. 

Saying Voldermort is not the same as saying Christmas. 

There are a lot of Jewish actors and Jewish journalists that have strong antipathy towards Christmas.

Imagine being the only Jewish kid in your high school, and being forced to eat Chinese food on Christmas day, while all the other kids open Awesome presents!  For these Jewish kids, it breeds a lifetime of resentment, bitterness, anger, and animosity towards Christmas.  I can understand why they resent promoting anything to do with Christmas as adults.  There are some actors who won't work on any Christmas related movies, like Paul Rudd who is Jewish, and admits to turning down working on a Christmas movie when he was a young and broke actor.  Now, I would imagine there are plenty of Jewish journalists who refuse to cover or promote anything to do with the Christmas holiday because it goes against their Jewish upbringing and beliefs. 

So you have public, powerful, and influential Jewish people actively determined to nullify and eradicate Christmas; and prevent Christians from fully celebrating the Christmas holiday but instead celebrate "Holiday Trees"

How can Americans promote freedom, openness, assimilation, and ending segregation, when these religious groups want to self-segregate at best, and eradicate fraudulent Christianity at worst. 

There is this anger and animosity towards the global spread and influence of Christianity, which is a fraudulent religion based on false and fraudulent profits.  When there is a Jewish Pope and a Jewish President, then we will see how stupid and idiotic these Christians are for following such a stupid religion.  We will end these fake religions, and when there is a Jewish King, then everyone will convert to Judaism.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

wtf

[milhouse24]

Celebrating a holiday several days after the winter solstice has been a Western tradition since before Jesus Christ walked the earth. Germanic peoples have hoisted trees before they were Christianized by the Romans. This simply isn't about accepting "gentile traditions." It is about accepting "Western tradition."

This is where you ignorance shows the most. Had the Jews been willing to accept these "Western traditions" they would have completely disappeared over a 1000 years ago. This refusal to accept is EXACTLY what they've been persecuted for all these centuries - and what they went to the gladiator ring, the fire of the inquisition and, in the end, to the gas chambers, to die for.  I am surprized that you find it acceptable to express such, fudnamentally, pogromschik opinions in public.

And, of course, if Christian celebration is an apostasy, a pagan celebration is a lot worse.

Do you think it is un-American to not assimilate?  I think its fine to be cliquey with your ethnic group.  But Jews are unique in that they chose to spread out into different countries, but at the same time retain their own cultural and religious identity.  They choose to live amongst Gentiles, yet hold Gentiles at Arms-length, with muted disdain perhaps.  Isn't the point of assimilation to integrate with different cultures and different people in order to gain trust and understanding. 

If you choose not to assimilate then that encourages distrust and angst.  If you choose to separate and self-segregate from the community you live in, then that is your own fault, and you shouldn't punish the rest of the community and majority because they listen to false profits. 

Jews like all ethnic groups can choose to live by themselves in their own communities, then they don't have to interact with Christians and other Gentiles. 

[ag]

I would take the strongest issue w/ both statements of milhouse24, not only as a (secular) Jew, but also as a member of the anglophone Mexican community. But, well, I guess, wtf is the more appropriate reaction. I would have thought that, at least in places like the US and at least wrt to the Jews, we've resolved this post-1945. It seems, we haven't.

[ag]

So, let me just be clear. Unless invited by somebody else to a party, I do not celebrate Christmas (either on Dec. 25th or on Jan. 7th), Thangsigiving, 4th of July, Mexican Independence Day, Israeli Independence Day, Russian Independence Day, Cinco de Mayo, Victory in Europe, Memorial Day, Mother's Day, Father's day, Labor Day (either in May or in September), Easter, Passover, Id al Fitr, Hanukkah, Kurban Bairam, Russian Revolution Day, Purim, Dewali, Queen's birthday (either in April or in June), Columbus Day/Dia de Hispanidad, Dia de la Raza or any of the other numerous secular or religious holidays the world has invented (bar the New Year, which I sometimes celebrate several times a year ) ). And to anybody who doesn't like that I would strongly suggest that they go f themsleves.

[milhouse24]

So, let me just be clear. Unless invited by somebody else to a party, I do not celebrate Christmas (either on Dec. 25th or on Jan. 7th), Thangsigiving, 4th of July, Mexican Independence Day, Israeli Independence Day, Russian Independence Day, Cinco de Mayo, Victory in Europe, Memorial Day, Mother's Day, Father's day, Labor Day (either in May or in September), Easter, Passover, Id al Fitr, Hanukkah, Kurban Bairam, Russian Revolution Day, Purim, Dewali, Queen's birthday (either in April or in June), Columbus Day/Dia de Hispanidad, Dia de la Raza or any of the other numerous secular or religious holidays the world has invented (bar the New Year, which I sometimes celebrate several times a year ) ). And to anybody who doesn't like that I would strongly suggest that they go f themsleves.

But why would it be okay to rename Christmas trees as "Holiday Trees" if by your own admission you do not care about Christianity, Christmas, Hannakuh, or any other holidays.  Why are you trying to restrict Christians or other religions from celebrating their holidays?  I admit that Macy's and corporate America and Hollywood has trumped up Christmas to absurd levels, but why is it the fault of Christians and Christian children that they can't say "Christmas = Voldermort" 

You know what would be really funny, if they put a Palestinian flag next to a Menorah or Christmas tree, just kidding.

[ag]

It's your freaking business how you call a tree at your home. I call it a New Year Tree, and if you call it the Holy Virgin Tree or St. Francis Ganesh Tree, or whatever, it doesn't concern me in the least. Has anyone on this planet insisted you call your tree anything other than a Christmas tree? If not, what exactly are you objecting to? Who is trying to restrict how anyone else celebrates any holiday? Or are you talking about government, rather than individual, celebrations?

As for me, I have no problem whatsoever w/ the Palestinian flag. It would look nice on a Menorah - but I don't have one ))

[Link]

But Jews are unique in that they chose to spread out into different countries, but at the same time retain their own cultural and religious identity.  They choose to live amongst Gentiles, yet hold Gentiles at Arms-length, with muted disdain perhaps.  Isn't the point of assimilation to integrate with different cultures and different people in order to gain trust and understanding. 

Mmmm... Throughout history Jews have assimilated.  You just don't know about it because those Jews... assimilated.  Heck you could have some Jewish ancestors who converted if you went far back enough.

[BigSkyBob]

3. It is undoubtedly true that from a Jewish standpoint there is a gross difference between not following Jewish traditions and accepting gentile traditions. It is one thing to eat pork (in fact, to make a point of including pork in every meal) and quite another thing to get some of that red wine that symbolizes some shlimazl's blood in Christian services.

That is a rather ham handed statement....

Are you going to claim that that guy didn't have some major bad (shlim) luck (mazl)? Or is your objection to use of the world "to symbolize" rather than the verb "to be"?

The words of Jesus Christ have been immortalized. Of the millions of people alive in his day, he is one of the few whom who's words are remembered. Is that "bad luck," or great fortune?

[BigSkyBob]

The ad was offensive because Christmas is a holiday dedicated to peace on earth and goodwill to men.

The correct statement would be that "Christmas is a holiday that some people (mostly Christians) believe is dedicated to peace on earth and goodwill of men. Other people (including many Christians, as well as most religious non-Christians) believe Christmas to be a religious holiday of one faith. And still other people (probably, most, and definitely most secular types of whatever origin) believe it to be dedicated to shopping and good eating". Anybody, who is not proud of finding his strength in his own ignorance would have appreciated that.

What I am reading is a person whom has can't disguish between his own virtues, and the virtues of other people. Instead of willing to be open-minded to the better aspects of those outside his own group, he filters the actions of those others through his irrational prejudices.

[BigSkyBob]

Christ's death was not bad luck, but rather a fulfillment of prophesy and redeems our sins.

Well, I hope you won't insist that this also becomes the Jewish interpretation of this story?

There is the issue of whether you respect his intrepretation or not.

Your statements seem more of a mocking of Christianity than anything else.

[BigSkyBob]

One of the ads shows a grandchild being asked what holiday they were celebrating? The child answers  "Christmas."

What's wrong with celebrating Christmas?

Maybe that it's another religion's holiday? This really isn't that hard.

I don't see why freedom of religion doesn't include the freedom to change religions.

If the girl had been exposed to Christianity by her peers, and chosen to convert to Christianity, it would offensive as hell to every Christian, and, ultimately every believer in religious freedom, for the Israeli government to promote prejudice against immigrants from America because some of them have children whom have embraced Christianity.

[BigSkyBob]

If the girl in ad the had learned the Christmas spirit, that is to her credit.

In any case, you should have noticed that the question that the Israeli ad in question raises wasn't so much celebrating Christmas, as noting the failure of the kid to recognize it is Hanukkah (the candles are pointedly behind the grandparents, who are clearly asking the girl about this particular celebration). This is obvious to any, even completely secular, Jew - looking at the screen even for 15 seconds you recognize all the symbols.  The child fails - and it is, obviously, an unpleasant failure for all the adults involved.

It is also obvious that the parents in question do not celebrate Christmas, so the child's reaction is fully coming from outside the family. Objecting to the child's indoctrination by an alien ideology is a normal reaction of any parent (my parents weren't happy when I cam home spouting Soviet propaganda either, even though it was all apparently dedicated to peace on earth). Children cannot make the sorts of judgements that are involved in religious conversion independently - that's where family comes in.

1) That "alien ideology" is called "America," and the children are "Americans." You're accusing the child of being the real "alien" when in fact it is that parents whom have the "alien" outlook. 

2) Practically, you are dead wrong on that one. At some age parents cannot have any say over the religion of their children.  If before that age the child embraces another religion, there is little the parents can do to stop the children from believing what they do covertly before that age, or overtly after that age.

3) All your statements seem predicated on a particular notion that if someone happens to be of Askenazi heritage then they should be "Jewish" as opposed to Christian, Muslim, or whatever. That premise if utterly false. Religious freedom extends to every ethnicity, including Ashkenazi.

4) The immigrant experience in America is that the immigrants don't fully assimilate, while, their children do. This creates a situation in which the attitudes of the children are different than those of the parents. Often parents are distressed by the gap between themselves and their children.

While this is to the immigrants pain, it is towards the good of American society.

Immigration is a cost-benefit calculation. The benefits are obvious. One of the costs is the cultural differences between parents and children. If the parents immigrated to America, that's the price they chose to pay.

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Your positions rest largely on Jewish Solipsism yet you are blind to that fact.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Christ's death was not bad luck, but rather a fulfillment of prophesy and redeems our sins.

Well, I hope you won't insist that this also becomes the Jewish interpretation of this story?

There is the issue of whether you respect his interpretation or not.

Your statements seem more of a mocking of Christianity than anything else.

From the Jewish POV, Christianity is a mocking of Judaism.

[Simfan34]

How does one lock a thread of theirs?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

How does one lock a thread of theirs?

If you are the starter of a thread or a moderator, the option appears at the bottom of the page.

[milhouse24]

It's your freaking business how you call a tree at your home. I call it a New Year Tree, and if you call it the Holy Virgin Tree or St. Francis Ganesh Tree, or whatever, it doesn't concern me in the least. Has anyone on this planet insisted you call your tree anything other than a Christmas tree? If not, what exactly are you objecting to? Who is trying to restrict how anyone else celebrates any holiday? Or are you talking about government, rather than individual, celebrations?

As for me, I have no problem whatsoever w/ the Palestinian flag. It would look nice on a Menorah - but I don't have one ))

Yeah, I was talking about the government putting up and calling them "Holiday Trees" instead of "Christmas Trees" - its just the stupidest sounding thing ever.  If the governor is going to put up a HOliday tree, he might as well just not put up any holiday decorations, which is probaby what liberals want, to secularize or de-christianize everything from christian or religious influence, and eradicate crhistianity from the land. 

Listen, I hate christian conservatives as much as any jewish person, and I do believe that Christianity is a fraudulent religion based on a false and fake profit.  There's no reason for Christianity or Catholicism to exist in the modern world, it might as well be a pagan religion.  The true religion will always be Judaism.  I'm sick of christian conservative influencing government and holding all the power and spreading their anti-abortion rhetoric.  I don't want to hurt any Jewish children's feelings because they can't celebrate Christmas while all the other kids are receiving wonderful presents, but I think it should be okay for public officials and public schools to say the word "Christmas" and openly celebrate Christmas as not just a holiday or religious holiday, but as a historically religious holiday, meaning its a part of history and a part of westernized culture.  It not only has a religious impact, but a historical, social and cultural impact as well.  Christmas is a historical holiday that should be celebrated by the government.