COVID-19 Megathread 5: The Trumps catch COVID-19

[Calthrina950]

I would agree with this. Individual businesses should have the right to decide whether or not they will require customers to wear masks while on their premises, but government should not, at least to the extent of fining, jailing, or otherwise penalizing people for not wearing them.

Does government have the right to tell you to cover your genitals in public, including in stores? It's for hygiene right? Because, so is this.

There is a difference between indecent exposure and mask wearing.

[Calthrina950]

There is a difference between indecent exposure and mask wearing.

Yes of course any comparison involves 2 things that are different. 🙄

Is this meant to be sarcasm? Indecent exposure could very well be construed as sexual assault. Can the same be said about mask wearing? Especially since not everyone can wear masks, aside from the other considerations attached to them? As I've made clear before, I think businesses can require their customers to wear masks, but governments should not be tying up their resources prosecuting or penalizing people over them. There are more important considerations at hand.

[Calthrina950]

Let's continue to listen to those protesters.

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1257626866791448576

It's not surprising to see this, but what will most Americans think once we hit 25% or even 30% unemployment, and the economy has completely crashed? When we have breadlines in every city, mass foreclosures across the country, mass bankruptcies, and millions of jobs permanently lost? At some point, people will have to make a choice between their financial well-being and their fears for their health, and that is an impossible choice for many.

[Calthrina950]

Let's continue to listen to those protesters.

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1257626866791448576

It's not surprising to see this, but what will most Americans think once we hit 25% or even 30% unemployment, and the economy has completely crashed? When we have breadlines in every city, mass foreclosures across the country, mass bankruptcies, and millions of jobs permanently lost? At some point, people will have to make a choice between their financial well-being and their fears for their health, and that is an impossible choice for many.

It's a sad day when people pick the economy over their health or other peoples health.

But for many people, the economy and their personal health are inseparable. As you very well know, many people only have insurance coverage because of their jobs. And of course, many others have no insurance coverage at all, even with a job. Depriving them of that would put them further into the hole. Do you think it is morally just for someone to be unemployed and to be reduced to begging at a food bank for sustenance, and to hope that they won't be evicted? All for the sake of a months-long lockdown that will not bring a cure to this virus, and by itself will cause more disruption and more harm? I don't think so.

[Calthrina950]

Let's continue to listen to those protesters.

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1257626866791448576

It's not surprising to see this, but what will most Americans think once we hit 25% or even 30% unemployment, and the economy has completely crashed? When we have breadlines in every city, mass foreclosures across the country, mass bankruptcies, and millions of jobs permanently lost? At some point, people will have to make a choice between their financial well-being and their fears for their health, and that is an impossible choice for many.

It's a sad day when people pick the economy over their health or other peoples health.

But for many people, the economy and their personal health are inseparable. As you very well know, many people only have insurance coverage because of their jobs. And of course, many others have no insurance coverage at all, even with a job. Depriving them of that would put them further into the hole. Do you think it is morally just for someone to be unemployed and to be reduced to begging at a food bank for sustenance, and to hope that they won't be evicted? All for the sake of a months-long lockdown that will not bring a cure to this virus, and by itself will cause more disruption and more harm? I don't think so.

That's a flaw in the healthcare system (a feature, I guess, for right wingers). Has nothing to do with the impact of coronavirus and everything to do with decades of failure of US leadership.

I certainly am not trying to argue that our healthcare system is "perfect" or "flawless"-it is far from that. What I am trying to say is that there is a point where the stay-at-home orders become unsustainable for millions of Americans. And Governors across the country have begun to recognize that.

[Calthrina950]

Let's continue to listen to those protesters.

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1257626866791448576

It's not surprising to see this, but what will most Americans think once we hit 25% or even 30% unemployment, and the economy has completely crashed? When we have breadlines in every city, mass foreclosures across the country, mass bankruptcies, and millions of jobs permanently lost? At some point, people will have to make a choice between their financial well-being and their fears for their health, and that is an impossible choice for many.

It's a sad day when people pick the economy over their health or other peoples health.

But for many people, the economy and their personal health are inseparable. As you very well know, many people only have insurance coverage because of their jobs. And of course, many others have no insurance coverage at all, even with a job. Depriving them of that would put them further into the hole. Do you think it is morally just for someone to be unemployed and to be reduced to begging at a food bank for sustenance, and to hope that they won't be evicted? All for the sake of a months-long lockdown that will not bring a cure to this virus, and by itself will cause more disruption and more harm? I don't think so.

That's a flaw in the healthcare system (a feature, I guess, for right wingers). Has nothing to do with the impact of coronavirus and everything to do with decades of failure of US leadership.

I certainly am not trying to argue that our healthcare system is "perfect" or "flawless"-it is far from that. What I am trying to say is that there is a point where the stay-at-home orders become unsustainable for millions of Americans. And Governors across the country have begun to recognize that.

"Governors", or "a few Republican Governors"?

Not just a "few Republican Governors". Even Democratic Governors such as Andrew Cuomo, Gavin Newsom, and Ralph Northam, among others, have begun outlining their plans to reopen the economies in their states. And Jared Polis-a Democrat-has already been doing so here in my home state of Colorado.

Let's continue to listen to those protesters.

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1257626866791448576

It's not surprising to see this, but what will most Americans think once we hit 25% or even 30% unemployment, and the economy has completely crashed? When we have breadlines in every city, mass foreclosures across the country, mass bankruptcies, and millions of jobs permanently lost? At some point, people will have to make a choice between their financial well-being and their fears for their health, and that is an impossible choice for many.

It's a sad day when people pick the economy over their health or other peoples health.

But for many people, the economy and their personal health are inseparable. As you very well know, many people only have insurance coverage because of their jobs. And of course, many others have no insurance coverage at all, even with a job. Depriving them of that would put them further into the hole. Do you think it is morally just for someone to be unemployed and to be reduced to begging at a food bank for sustenance, and to hope that they won't be evicted? All for the sake of a months-long lockdown that will not bring a cure to this virus, and by itself will cause more disruption and more harm? I don't think so.

That's a flaw in the healthcare system (a feature, I guess, for right wingers). Has nothing to do with the impact of coronavirus and everything to do with decades of failure of US leadership.

I certainly am not trying to argue that our healthcare system is "perfect" or "flawless"-it is far from that. What I am trying to say is that there is a point where the stay-at-home orders become unsustainable for millions of Americans. And Governors across the country have begun to recognize that.

"Governors", or "a few Republican Governors"?

Democrat Ralph Northam is letting us reopen restaurants and barbers next week ... announced earlier than Republican Larry Hogan.

And Hogan has been praised by many, particularly on this website, for his response to the pandemic. He and Charlie Baker, moreover, have been the only Republican Governors to date who have issued mandatory mask orders, a measure which has been touted by many on the left.

[Calthrina950]

Mandatory masks aren't touted by "the left", they're touted by people who take facts into consideration. There's a reason why countries like Taiwan and South Korea have been so much more effective in their response than this country has.

Perhaps I should have praised it differently. From a political perspective, it has been Democratic officials-predominantly governors and mayors-who have imposed the vast majority of the mandatory mask orders which have been issued within the states. Republican officials have-with the exceptions of Baker and Hogan-largely refrained from doing so. Moreover, polls have shown that Democrats are more likely than Republicans to wear masks or facial coverings in public-I noted an ABC News poll from a few weeks ago to that effect, indicating that 69% of Democrats and 47% of Republicans are wearing them in public. Democrats have also been more likely-as I've also noted-to consider them a necessary measure to combat the pandemic (which I agree with, but not to the extent of mandating it), while Republicans have viewed them as an instrument of control.

[Calthrina950]

Moreover, polls have shown that Democrats are more likely than Republicans to wear masks or facial coverings in public-I noted an ABC News poll from a few weeks ago to that effect, indicating that 69% of Democrats and 47% of Republicans are wearing them in public.

I'm just not seeing this. People around here generally don't wear them, especially outdoors. It tends to be more left-wing types who don't wear them around here, maybe because it's just not always realistic, or because they're careful enough not to get right up in people's faces to begin with.

It was a poll evaluating the national American population. Obviously, specific regions are going to see varying levels of compliance-especially pertinent if such region is under a mandatory mask order. The same is true here in Colorado. Polis only issued a mask advisory, not a mandate, for the general public, and here in El Paso County, most people are donning masks voluntarily (aside from essential employees). There's only a handful of businesses around here, to my knowledge, that have made them mandatory. However, in other parts of the state (i.e. Denver, Boulder, Larimer Counties), mask-wearing has been made mandatory for all residents in public spaces and essential businesses, and hence, is probably close to universal in those areas.

[Calthrina950]

If the task force is disbanded, I don't think we'll ever be free of this pandemic. Not until we have a vaccine, which might never happen; we've never created a vaccine for a coronavirus.

We would have to learn to live with it, although I think it's impractical to expect social distancing, masks, and all the rest to continue indefinitely. Our society eventually acclimatized itself to HIV/AIDS, to give an example of what the path forward might look like if there is no vaccine.

[Calthrina950]

If the task force is disbanded, I don't think we'll ever be free of this pandemic. Not until we have a vaccine, which might never happen; we've never created a vaccine for a coronavirus.

We would have to learn to live with it, although I think it's impractical to expect social distancing, masks, and all the rest to continue indefinitely. Our society eventually acclimatized itself to HIV/AIDS, to give an example of what the path forward might look like if there is no vaccine.

HIV/AIDS is much easier to prevent transmission of. If this coronavirus is truly with us forever, we're looking at an eventual herd immunity scenario as the only realistic ending. Of course that probably means 1-2 million deaths.

True, but as I've said, we're not going to be able to continue today's measures indefinitely. Do you think people are going to tolerate putting up with social distancing on a permanent basis? And I'm aware of the arguments that have been made about herd immunity.

[Calthrina950]

https://twitter.com/StevenTDennis/status/1258087314561142785

None of this is surprising to me. Republican areas are generally pushing to lift restrictions more quickly and more broadly than Democratic areas, and Republican voters have, as previous polls shown, adhered less to social distancing guidelines than their Democratic counterparts. Here in El Paso County, for example, the Board of Commissioners is pushing for dine-in restaurants to reopen, although the County Health Department is recommending against doing so.

[Calthrina950]

If the task force is disbanded, I don't think we'll ever be free of this pandemic. Not until we have a vaccine, which might never happen; we've never created a vaccine for a coronavirus.

We would have to learn to live with it, although I think it's impractical to expect social distancing, masks, and all the rest to continue indefinitely. Our society eventually acclimatized itself to HIV/AIDS, to give an example of what the path forward might look like if there is no vaccine.

HIV/AIDS is much easier to prevent transmission of. If this coronavirus is truly with us forever, we're looking at an eventual herd immunity scenario as the only realistic ending. Of course that probably means 1-2 million deaths.

True, but as I've said, we're not going to be able to continue today's measures indefinitely. Do you think people are going to tolerate putting up with social distancing on a permanent basis? And I'm aware of the arguments that have been made about herd immunity.

Building upon this, here's an article I've found outlining what "living with coronavirus" would look like without a vaccine: https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/03/health/coronavirus-vaccine-never-developed-intl/index.html/.

[Calthrina950]

I'm a fan of the measures for now, but the only thing I don't really like is the masks. My concern is that people won't know when to stop using them. I'm worried people will keep using them after the threat is gone, and I don't like that.

This is a question I've been curious about as well. How long will mask-wearing be a norm? Probably for the next several months. Even though they're necessary, I've struggled to get myself used to seeing them (and wearing them).

[Calthrina950]

I think Katie Miller gets infected with an even worse virus on the regular if you know what I'm saying.

I didn't even know that she was Stephen Miller's wife, but then again, the last name should have been a hint. It's astonishing that this cretin is one of the few remaining original advisers in the Trump White House, alongside Kellyanne Conway, who is someone I thought would have been gone by now.

[Calthrina950]

https://twitter.com/rachel_dz/status/1259273747514773505

I saw an article somewhere that Ivanka Trump's personal assistant has also tested positive for coronavirus. The virus is now getting dangerously close to Pence and to the Trumps, if it hasn't already got them.

[Calthrina950]

My husband and I went out to the dog park today as we do pretty regularly, carefully maintaining social distancing. There were significantly more people out and about this weekend as opposed to last weekend, with lots more vehicles at the parking lots of lots of businesses. It was really quite depressing to see.

I've noticed this as well. At work today, there was a significantly larger number of customers than previously. My store (Home Depot) is still limiting the number of customers who can be in the store at any one time, but they've raised the limit from 100 to 150. The store is therefore filled to capacity at all times. Moreover, I noticed that there were more maskless customers than before. The majority are still wearing masks, but the stubborn, persistent minority has made their presence more known. I went to the grocery store after work, and noticed again the significantly larger number of customers. Here in El Paso County, it seems like people are trying to get back to normal as soon as possible. Our Board of Commissioners was even making calls for all dine-in restaurants to be opened now, but the County Health Department has refused to support such a move, saying we are not ready for it.

[Calthrina950]

My husband and I went out to the dog park today as we do pretty regularly, carefully maintaining social distancing. There were significantly more people out and about this weekend as opposed to last weekend, with lots more vehicles at the parking lots of lots of businesses. It was really quite depressing to see.

I've noticed this as well. At work today, there was a significantly larger number of customers than previously. My store (Home Depot) is still limiting the number of customers who can be in the store at any one time, but they've raised the limit from 100 to 150. The store is therefore filled to capacity at all times. Moreover, I noticed that there were more maskless customers than before. The majority are still wearing masks, but the stubborn, persistent minority has made their presence more known. I went to the grocery store after work, and noticed again the significantly larger number of customers. Here in El Paso County, it seems like people are trying to get back to normal as soon as possible. Our Board of Commissioners was even making calls for all dine-in restaurants to be opened now, but the County Health Department has refused to support such a move, saying we are not ready for it.

The frustrating thing here is that we are still completely under our safer-at-home orders, as the metrics on decreasing cases haven't been met, but people are not following those rules as willingly, which means the metrics will take even longer to be met. Ugh.

This much is true. As I've said before, the approach in El Paso County differs from that of other regions in my state-such as Boulder and Denver. In Denver, Mayor Michael Hancock extended the stay-at-home order beyond the state's expiration deadline (April 29); there, it ended only yesterday. Moreover, he issued his order before Polis issued his, and he has mandated mask-wearing at all businesses, in contrast to what has been done down here, where it is still voluntary. Denver has definitely taken a much more rigorous approach to it than the Springs has.

But this also speaks back to the difference in mentality that can be observed between Republican and Democratic areas. The former are much more likely to wish for a return to normality; the latter adhere much more rigorously to the guidelines laid out by the experts. Among the Republican Governors, the only ones who have most closely adhered to expert advice have been Hogan, Baker, Scott, and DeWine. Hogan and DeWine in particular, deserve praise for their responses.

[Calthrina950]

I wear a mask when going to the transaction windows of fast-food places.  If people taking the cash or handing you fast food are wearing masks, then so should you.

Speaking of masks again, I noticed yet another increase in the number of customers not wearing masks at my job today. The majority still are, but the persistent minority-as I call them-has now risen to around 40% of all customers. It's amazing how stubborn so many people have been. Like I've said before, people will not wear masks unless if they are mandated to (and yes, I know that I've expressed skepticism over the mandatory mask orders since). But it's starting to get on me now, especially as we employees have been required to wear masks for weeks now, and yet many people still are not.

[Calthrina950]

I wear a mask when going to the transaction windows of fast-food places.  If people taking the cash or handing you fast food are wearing masks, then so should you.

Speaking of masks again, I noticed yet another increase in the number of customers not wearing masks at my job today. The majority still are, but the persistent minority-as I call them-has now risen to around 40% of all customers. It's amazing how stubborn so many people have been. Like I've said before, people will not wear masks unless if they are mandated to (and yes, I know that I've expressed skepticism over the mandatory mask orders since). But it's starting to get on me now, especially as we employees have been required to wear masks for weeks now, and yet many people still are not.

A suggestion that I might give: Thank people for wearing masks or scarves. Kind words can be encouraging. The isolation under which people live is limiting their opportunity to hear kind words of any kind.  

On the opposite side of the spectrum, society should shame those who don’t wear masks.
They should be ostracized and rumored about in their communities.

I think this goes too far. In areas where it hasn't been mandated-such as in El Paso County-people can choose whether or not to wear masks. Businesses of course, can refuse to admit them if they so wish. However, I certainly am starting to see the value in the arguments of those who want to make it mandatory, by government order.

[Calthrina950]

I wear a mask when going to the transaction windows of fast-food places.  If people taking the cash or handing you fast food are wearing masks, then so should you.

Speaking of masks again, I noticed yet another increase in the number of customers not wearing masks at my job today. The majority still are, but the persistent minority-as I call them-has now risen to around 40% of all customers. It's amazing how stubborn so many people have been. Like I've said before, people will not wear masks unless if they are mandated to (and yes, I know that I've expressed skepticism over the mandatory mask orders since). But it's starting to get on me now, especially as we employees have been required to wear masks for weeks now, and yet many people still are not.

A suggestion that I might give: Thank people for wearing masks or scarves. Kind words can be encouraging. The isolation under which people live is limiting their opportunity to hear kind words of any kind. 

Ironically enough, I had two customers thank me for wearing a mask over a month ago, before Governor Polis made it mandatory for essential employees. At that time, most of my fellow employees were not wearing masks.

[Calthrina950]

New WaPo-Ipsos poll of large states shows that, with the exception of DeWine in Ohio (who of course has been taking this very seriously and fighting his own party on it), Democratic governors are much more popular than Republican governors in terms of approval of their COVID response.

Notably, Brian Kemp in Georgia (first to reopen) has the lowest approval rating, underwater at 39%. And “that woman” Gretchen Whitmer has a 72% approval rating. Looks like all those protesters were just a vocal minority. Shocker!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/many-governors-win-bipartisan-support-for-handling-of-pandemic-but-some-republicans-face-blowback-over-reopening-efforts/2020/05/11/8e98500e-93d2-11ea-9f5e-56d8239bf9ad_story.html

Brad Little and Holcomb have also been pretty good, at least for GOP governors.

And don't forget Larry Hogan, who's probably had the best response to the pandemic aside from DeWine among Republicans, and certainly among all Governors.

[Calthrina950]

California Mayor is apparently trying to push the stay at home order through July (which isn't going to be necessary due to the case trend). Hopefully he realizes what that means and he will come back to reality, but expect riots if he doesn't.

I highly doubt there will be riots for that. I think most people have been expecting long lockdowns for a while now.

Through July? Lol no

Yeah, 4+ months of stay-at-home orders will not be tolerated well by many.

Too bad for them.

You must be one of those who prioritizes fighting the virus over gradually reopening the economy, a reopening process that would be attended with precautions. We've already seen the negative, and extensive economic impacts from the few months of shutdowns we've had. I think it would be in LA County's interest to adopt a "safer-at-home", phased reopening approach, similar to that occurring here in Colorado.

[Calthrina950]

Certain Governors and Mayors are really letting their authoritarian instincts show. If states like Colorado and Georgia are able to keep the virus under control while cautiously reopening, no way do these hard lockdowns last for months more without the use of force.

Montana may very well be the best example of reducing this virus while letting things open.

And Montana and Colorado have Democratic Governors. As I've said before, Polis has done a good job of balancing public health with economic considerations, and has certainly had a clearer direction, in terms of how reopening will proceed, than many of his colleagues.

[Calthrina950]

California Mayor is apparently trying to push the stay at home order through July (which isn't going to be necessary due to the case trend). Hopefully he realizes what that means and he will come back to reality, but expect riots if he doesn't.

I highly doubt there will be riots for that. I think most people have been expecting long lockdowns for a while now.

Through July? Lol no

Yeah, 4+ months of stay-at-home orders will not be tolerated well by many.

Too bad for them.

You must be one of those who prioritizes fighting the virus over gradually reopening the economy, a reopening process that would be attended with precautions. We've already seen the negative, and extensive economic impacts from the few months of shutdowns we've had. I think it would be in LA County's interest to adopt a "safer-at-home", phased reopening approach, similar to that occurring here in Colorado.

We are absolutely nowhere near prepared to reopen; look what is already happening to countries who’ve checked all the right boxes in order to reopen, yet are already seeing signs of a second wave. America half-assed its lockdowns, we have a large segment of our population unwilling to even wear a simple mask in public, have nowhere near enough PPE, and people think we are in any way prepared to begin reopening?

I'm certainly aware of the issues which we have seen for our reopening process, and it has been said for quite some time that there will be a second wave. However, would you advocate keeping large segments of the economy shuttered down for several months more? Let's say that we were to do that. What would be the economic consequences? The public health consequences? And by "public health consequences", I mean the risks associated with suicide, domestic violence, and other life-threatening diseases such as cancer and heart disease. These are in addition to the risks posed by coronavirus itself.

At some point, people will be forced to consider-as I've said before-their financial well-being, and balance it with concerns for their health. And many small business owners and workers cannot afford to be kept out of business for the duration which you propose. Unless if you welcome 30% unemployment, that is. And I'm certain, knowing your viewpoints, that you wouldn't.

[Calthrina950]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lifestyle-buzz/how-long-are-we-going-to-be-wearing-masks-we-asked-the-experts/ar-BB13nolJ


Some experts expect mask wearing to be heavily encouraged until Nov 2021 (18 months) - the general time frame most experts expect a fully functional vaccine to be fully distributed. I still don't know if I buy it

I'm not wasting the next 18 months of my life on this.

I certainly hope that mask wearing will not be the norm for that long.