Why Trump will win again.
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Author Topic: Why Trump will win again.  (Read 2623 times)
morgankingsley
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« Reply #50 on: October 30, 2019, 04:22:54 PM »

I do believe that Trump will have a much higher chance of winning than most people say he does, but it is far from a certainty. Like if I had to pick, I would say he is more likely to win than not, but that is still not a sure thing
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SN2903
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« Reply #51 on: October 30, 2019, 04:29:23 PM »

I do believe that Trump will have a much higher chance of winning than most people say he does, but it is far from a certainty. Like if I had to pick, I would say he is more likely to win than not, but that is still not a sure thing
Fair.
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SN2903
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #52 on: October 30, 2019, 04:31:40 PM »

1. If a moderate is nominated, people on the far left will whine and vote third party or not show up because by their logic, it’s better to have a President that you don’t agree with at all than one that you mostly agree with, but that just isn’t far left enough.

2. If a progressive such as Warren or Bernie is nominated they will lose the electoral college because moderates and independents simply do not like their ideas. The polling backs this up every time. M4A and the GND are very unpopular.

Democrats can’t stop fighting with each other and will throw the election to Trump once again. If you want Trump out of office vote for the Democratic candidate. Seems like a simple idea, but many can’t seem to grasp it

I agree that 2 is a possibility (though not assured) but 1 is not.  Most progressives will hold their noses and vote for Biden.  Most people on the "far left" are in states that won't be decisive anyways.  If Biden is nominated there are very few scenarios in which Trump actually wins.  He will still get massive margins in major metro areas and he would also probably win vote rich suburbs by stunningly large margins, making it very hard for Trump to win in states like Michigan, Pennsylvania, Florida, Arizona and basically impossible for Trump to win in states like Nevada, Colorado, and Virginia.

Trump is doomed in these three states, regardless of who the Democrats nominate. The Las Vegas, Denver, and Northern Virginia/Richmond/Hampton Roads/Virginia Beach suburbs are becoming more and more Democratic, as last year's results showed. However, I do think that Biden would probably do the best out of any of the top Democratic contenders in these three states. I think he would win Nevada by mid to high single digits, and Colorado and Virginia by high single to low double digits.
What? No chance any dem wins CO and VA by 10+ Those states will both be within 5.
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pbrower2a
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« Reply #53 on: October 30, 2019, 08:58:26 PM »

I do believe that Trump will have a much higher chance of winning than most people say he does, but it is far from a certainty. Like if I had to pick, I would say he is more likely to win than not, but that is still not a sure thing
Fair.

Many of us underestimate the possibility of demonic miracles. As in other democracies, the moneyed elites as devoid of empathy as they are flush in cash will support a fascist who will destroy democracy on behalf of ultra-cheap labor, monopolized markets, tax cuts, privatization on the cheap, elimination of anti-capitalist dissent, and wars for profits even if the person who serves as the vehicle for such is pure sleaze. By pure sleaze, you know what I mean.

An attempt to use historical patterns to predict the future depends upon which interpretation one finds most relevant. The last three Presidents got re-elected much the way in which they won Five states flipped between 1992 and 1996 (practically a wash), three between 2000 and 2004 (likewise), and two in 2008 and 2012 (which made no real difference).  In 24 years we have known nothing else. For many, 24 years is a seeming eternity. But 27 years ago a President who seemed to have solved lots of problems lost a re-election bid because he could convince people that he had any idea of what to do next.

OK... twelve years of two Presidents offering the same economic philosophy is enough to not make people want four more years unless there is some compelling reason. But we are asking about Donald Trump after four years of a radical rejection of his predecessor whom he thinks a monstrosity. Four years of a President who thinks he has much yet to achieve is usually grounds for re-election. Usually, that is.

I'm going to dismiss astrological charts, which football team wins the Super Bowl and which team wins the World Series, which nominee has more kings as ancestors, or which nominee is taller. I have seen all of those proffered  in selecting the winner. The Lichtman test? People who see the same events interpret its criteria differently, as I have found.   

Donald Trump defies any effort to establish an analogue. His personality stands out or sticks out as Obama sticks out by appearance in contrast to other Presidents. If Obama could be elected President and could be re-elected, then is such so for anyone? No.

We must ignore our personal observations that we think him wonderful or horrible. 

Ordinarily the economy demonstrates who will win... but Trump is doing far worse than Obama in polling.  One can overstate or understate the relevance of polling -- but what other quantitative assessment of the President's performance do we have? 

We have few analogues for the Presidency; the Presidency was very different even ninety years ago from what it is today. We have far more records involving Governors and Senators, especially in recent times. Senators and State governors get almost as much attention as the President in states with elections for the Governorship and the Senate. Besides, most nominees for President are current or former Senators or Governors, so such is relevant to the Presidency. Some measure of approval, whether approval itself or the residue after disapproval (for the latter, 100-DIS) is a good proxy for early support a year before the election.

I consider disapproval even more important than approval. Disapproval establishes who will not vote for one. A spirited and competent campaign might sway undecided voters to the advantage of the incumbent, but not those who disapprove of him. I see no reason to see disapproval as anything other than giving up on the pol.

On one side, Governors and Senators typically gain 6-7% from support at the start of campaign season to their shares of a binary vote. Governing and legislating are far more complicated than is making promises to get certain results. If one does not get one's promises achieved, then one can campaign again to much the same electorate and usually win. On the other hand one can do things that offend public sensibilities or one can face a changing political culture and lose -- or one offends rich-and-powerful people and gets a barrage of hostile advertising against one. Thus someone like Senator Russ Feingold, a liberal darling, ran afoul of people who believe that government rightly serves wealth at the expense of all else -- including anyone who lacks it. On the other hand, one can badly (like Governor Tom Corbett, R-PA) mishandle a scandal involving a small group of people and lose badly after having horrid polls throughout the campaign season.  Go figure. It was a sex scandal, but Governor Corbett did not molest children or college athletes.

If one starts with approval around 44%, one usually wins the state. Below that level of early support the average incumbent Governor or Senator gains about 6.5% from governing or legislating to pitching oneself for re-election. This is the 'average' campaign against the 'average' challenger. Note well that appointed incumbents do far worse than those already elected to the office... but appointed pols never showed that they could win in the first place. OK, Senators Scott (R-SC) and Smith (D-MN) have proved themselves.

OK, so what about breaking scandals? The media know, and they stay clear of giving such pols as have them about to break much favorable coverage. Journalists do not want to find themselves connected to such a loser, and approval numbers for such pols as get exposed are usually depressed even before the scandal breaks.

Although approval numbers for Obama and Trump are fairly close a year before the election, disapproval numbers are rally bad for Trump. I can try to establish explanations for Trump having such horrid levels of disapproval. Chaos? Corruption? Poor communication? None of those bode well for the President. I cannot see him undoing those. Trump has some assets: the people who believe that no human suffering can ever be in excess so long as that suffering turns, indulges, or enforces a profit. We still live in a plutocratic culture.   



 
 
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Beefalow and the Consumer
Beef
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« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2019, 12:55:56 PM »
« Edited: October 31, 2019, 01:02:39 PM by Beef »

Regarding economic conditions, the Industrial Midwest soundly rejected the notion that Obama's massive gains in objective economic measures over the course of eight years (albeit anemic in his final two years) meant that their personal economic outlook was peachy. Trump promised to bring back industrial sector jobs - specifically jobs for men without a college education - and I don't see that that has happened. If I'm wrong, please show me the data.

For every white collar guy with a six-figure 401k who is considerably wealthier than he was in 2016, how many blue collar guys are still hurting as much as, or worse than they were? Trump absolutely has to get those guys to show up at the polls to be re-elected, and I don't think they're going to be energized by GDP numbers or an abundance of low-paying retail and service sector jobs. Michigan is gone, and Wisconsin and Pennsylvania are iffy.

Regarding scandal, we saw Hillary's support among independents take a nosedive after Comey announced he was looking into more emails two weeks before the election. Exit polls show that everyone outside of the Democrat true believers was deeply concerned about this, and a lot of voters chose Trump because of it. By any objective measure the Ukraine scandal blows Clinton's emails out of the water, and I don't see how this isn't worse for Trump than muh emails was for Hillary.

If this were any other President, these fundamentals indicate a cakewalk to re-election. CO, NV, MN and NH would all flip. Maybe even VA. But this is Trump, and he's managed to do everything in his power to screw up his own prospects.
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Hermit For Peace
hermit
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« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2019, 04:35:45 PM »

CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/31/politics/donald-trump-ad-world-series-2020/index.html

"Yes, he's a jerk. But he's a jerk who gets results!"

"He's no Mr. Nice Guy. But sometimes it takes a Donald Trump to change Washington."

Re: World Series ad, if they package Trump like this he may just win, they are saying.

He is changing Washington, gotta admit that. But for the good?
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Beefalow and the Consumer
Beef
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #56 on: November 01, 2019, 01:06:22 PM »

CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/31/politics/donald-trump-ad-world-series-2020/index.html

"Yes, he's a jerk. But he's a jerk who gets results!"

"He's no Mr. Nice Guy. But sometimes it takes a Donald Trump to change Washington."

Re: World Series ad, if they package Trump like this he may just win, they are saying.

He is changing Washington, gotta admit that. But for the good?


bUt He'S nOt A pOliTiCiAn
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2019, 03:13:21 PM »

1. If a moderate is nominated, people on the far left will whine and vote third party or not show up because by their logic, it’s better to have a President that you don’t agree with at all than one that you mostly agree with, but that just isn’t far left enough.

2. If a progressive such as Warren or Bernie is nominated they will lose the electoral college because moderates and independents simply do not like their ideas.

It's pretty sad that you won't even make a genuine argument without including your biases here.

For "people on the far left", it's "whining and voting third party" when candidates don't share 100% of their views.

For "moderates and independents", it's because they simply "do not like their ideas" when candidates don't share 100% of their views.
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