COVID-19 Megathread 6: Return of the Omicron

[DaleCooper]

The New York Times has published a report on "most likely coincidental" incidents of heart irregularities in vaccinated young adults.

I may have mentioned this in other threads, but I'm dealing with some vaccine-hesitant family members. None of them watch conservative media and hadn't been anti-vax before. They're scared because "credible" organizations are bombarding them with horror stories about unverified one-in-a-million negative effects of the vaccine.

[DaleCooper]

The New York Times has published a report on "most likely coincidental" incidents of heart irregularities in vaccinated young adults.

I may have mentioned this in other threads, but I'm dealing with some vaccine-hesitant family members. None of them watch conservative media and hadn't been anti-vax before. They're scared because "credible" organizations are bombarding them with horror stories about unverified one-in-a-million negative effects of the vaccine.

What I always say to vaccine hesitant people I know is that when something like these vaccines have so much good to offer society, it's easier to focus on the bad than vice-versa.

That's a good line, thanks. I'll try to use that one.

I also got the second vaccine dose last week and am fine so hopefully that, combined with the mask mandates ending for vaccinated people, will encourage them.

[DaleCooper]

I wore my masks everywhere indoors and in crowds up until 14 days after I got my second dose of the vaccine. I did everything right, and I'm done now. I was always patient with the common-sense restrictions and I still have no patience with the conspiracy kooks and anti-vax people, but I'm growing equally impatient with those that are pretending that masking up and social distancing are tenable ways of life even now that we have the vaccine. In fact, I just saw another article from the New York Times about how we need masks again, and judging from nearly everything I've been hearing from liberal outlets, I'm thoroughly convinced that their goal is to endure COVID restrictions indefinitely. When does it end if not with the 99% effective vaccines that have time and again been proven to be mostly effective against all the variants?

[DaleCooper]

Is it just around them they make you mask? You don't have to wear it in your room I hope.

No, not in my room. But my stepmother reiterated to me what my father wants me to do this morning, and it's just compounding other issues I'm already facing. If he had gotten his vaccine by now, this probably wouldn't be an issue. And I still find it ironic, given that early in the pandemic, I was the one who was panicked, and he told me that I was overreacting and needed to calm down. Moreover, as I've said before, he is a two-time Trump voter, so that makes his views on this even more strange.

This is interesting, because I was also extremely panicked early on and much more so than anyone around me. In fact, for a few weeks I was ordering all my groceries delivered and everything, but after a month or two I became more relaxed and felt comfortable following the guidance of the CDC. Now, because I'm still following the experts' advice, I've become far less worried than a lot of my liberal peers, who genuinely seem disturbed that we're improving and are able to get back to normal. I've yet to see anyone other than liberal pundits claim that we need to revert back to lockdowns and mask mandates.

[DaleCooper]

Chicago schools are said to be mandating masks for everyone whether vaccinated or not. This will probably be the norm in all Democratic cities, I'm guessing.

[DaleCooper]

Chicago schools are said to be mandating masks for everyone whether vaccinated or not.

How do they expect to enforce this?

If you're not wearing a mask you get sent home?

But they're getting rid of remote "learning."

I'm assuming they'll just force them to wear masks in much the same way they'd be forced to remain in their seats or go to class on time. Sending them home isn't unprecedented because schools are able to send students or staff home if they have head lice or contagious conditions like chickenpox, but in those cases the students clearly are unwell and contagious and not capable of safely learning. In this case, there's a presumption of "guilt" (or rather, infection) regardless of evidence. 

[DaleCooper]

Chicago schools are said to be mandating masks for everyone whether vaccinated or not.

How do they expect to enforce this?

If you're not wearing a mask you get sent home?

But they're getting rid of remote "learning."

I'm assuming they'll just force them to wear masks in much the same way they'd be forced to remain in their seats or go to class on time. Sending them home isn't unprecedented because schools are able to send students or staff home if they have head lice or contagious conditions like chickenpox, but in those cases the students clearly are unwell and contagious and not capable of safely learning. In this case, there's a presumption of "guilt" (or rather, infection) regardless of evidence. 

The generation after Gen Z will be lifelong Republicans because of this.

This is one of the cases where I'm a lot more concerned about the social implications than the electoral implications. Anti-social behavior is already a huge problem among younger people and I worry that this will make things a lot worse. Not being able to interact with people face to face is depressing and destructive, and I'd imagine it's especially so for young and developing minds.

[DaleCooper]

I just want to vent that pretty much all of the liberal "pro-science" media is devoting wall to wall coverage to the potential for the vaccines being ineffective longterm. They're desperate for an endless pandemic and I hate them for it. I'm struggling to get some important people in my life to get the vaccine and they're convinced that the vaccine doesn't prevent infections, and it's because of bloodthirsty 24-hour news networks and fear-mongering rags like the NYT.

[DaleCooper]

Chicago schools are said to be mandating masks for everyone whether vaccinated or not.

How do they expect to enforce this?

If you're not wearing a mask you get sent home?

But they're getting rid of remote "learning."

I'm assuming they'll just force them to wear masks in much the same way they'd be forced to remain in their seats or go to class on time. Sending them home isn't unprecedented because schools are able to send students or staff home if they have head lice or contagious conditions like chickenpox, but in those cases the students clearly are unwell and contagious and not capable of safely learning. In this case, there's a presumption of "guilt" (or rather, infection) regardless of evidence. 

The generation after Gen Z will be lifelong Republicans because of this.

This is one of the cases where I'm a lot more concerned about the social implications than the electoral implications. Anti-social behavior is already a huge problem among younger people and I worry that this will make things a lot worse. Not being able to interact with people face to face is depressing and destructive, and I'd imagine it's especially so for young and developing minds.

A young person buried six-feet under ground, due to Covid, will obviously have a difficult time interacting with others face-to-face.

Why are you saying this? We've known for almost a year and a half that COVID is not dangerous to children. Yes, they can get it, but in terms of statistics they are more likely to end up in emergency care for choking on food at lunchtime than they are to die or probably even end up in the hospital for COVID-19, and that doesn't mean that we require them to blend up all their food before eating it.

[DaleCooper]

This new CDC guidance and the all the places that are reimplementing masks mandates for vaccinated people are absolute disaters for the vaccine effort.  

If everyone agree that the problem entirely likes with unvaccinated people, why would you change policy in a way that specifically harms only the vaccinated???  

Why not just enforce the mandates we already have for the unvaccinated?

This is insane.

I'm certain that there's a concerted effort, especially by the media, to convince America that the vaccines are not protecting them. It's working, too. Even some of my vaccinated family are convinced they aren't safe.

[DaleCooper]

As far as I'm cornered nytimes are not better the Tucker Carlson or the crazy people on Facebook

They are purposely spreading misinformation about the vaccines simply because they know it will get them more attention and clicks

nytimes knows full well that Vaccinated people do not transmit this virus at the same rate as the unvaccinated. They should be ashamed of themselves for potentially putting some of thier readers lives at risk by scaring them away from getting vaccinated and making them think that vaccines are not as effective when it comes to protecting them

The New York Times has been a menace to the vaccination effort for a long time now. Even before the vaccines were widely available, they were publishing daily headlines about how the vaccine "might" cause infertility or damage the bodies of pregnant women. Now they're essentially telling the world that the vaccine does nothing to stop the spread of COVID due to the Delta variant. I've defended this paper for way too long and I'm done with it now. It's propaganda through and through and the credible journalists still with the company need to walk out.

[DaleCooper]

At this point I think the public health officials and the media have destroyed any hope of 70% of Americans getting fully vaccinated any time soon. Their constant lying about how the vaccine doesn't work is the primary reason. Think about it, if all you knew was what the media headlines told you, you'd believe that the vaccine gave you shoddy protection for 6 months until you'd need indefinite booster shots that also wouldn't protect you so you still have to wear masks and social distance for the rest of your life. If that's all the information that I had, then I'd have no interest in getting the fastest-approved vaccine in history either.

[DaleCooper]

I'm not necessarily defending them. But I am wondering exactly what DeSantis and Abbott could have done. It's no longer feasible to do lockdowns, and I feel like there's only so much you can do to convince people to take vaccines. Beyond a certain point, you can't fix stupid.

At this point the only thing I can think of that might have worked is some kind of government promise to lift the social distancing restrictions once a certain percentage of a county had received the vaccine. That gives incentive while also allowing for some hope as far as normalcy goes. Of course, one of the most important things these Republicans could've done was excise all of the anti-vaccine conspiracy mongering from their party.

Not fight cities and counties trying to implement mask mandates recommended by the CDC, for one thing.

This is so beyond irrelevant at this point that I struggle to understand why people are still bringing it up. We're done with the masks. The only people who will even consider wearing them are a small handful of health-nut conspiracy theorists who think Big Pharma tainted the vaccine, or people that are already vaccinated and at extremely low risk. Any breath wasted on mask mandates rather than figuring out how to increase the number of vaccinated Americans is nothing but a distraction now.

[DaleCooper]

Not fight cities and counties trying to implement mask mandates recommended by the CDC, for one thing.

This is so beyond irrelevant at this point that I struggle to understand why people are still bringing it up. We're done with the masks. The only people who will even consider wearing them are a small handful of health-nut conspiracy theorists who think Big Pharma tainted the vaccine, or people that are already vaccinated and at extremely low risk. Any breath wasted on mask mandates rather than figuring out how to increase the number of vaccinated Americans is nothing but a distraction now.

People on this forum keep saying this but it's just in total contradiction to all the polling we see on this issue. 58% of adults plan to wear masks "always" or "most of the time" in public indoor spaces, and 69% support mask mandates (Source). It's not just this poll either, several other polls report similar results.

It's pretty clear now that vaccines alone are not enough to stop Delta from spreading out of control; breakthrough cases are not rare and such people could spread the virus just as much as unvaccinated infected. Vaccine mandates are great and I'm glad they're gaining traction, but we need mask mandates and vaccine mandates to control Delta, or whatever variant later takes its place which is guaranteed to be even worse. We can only hope the two together can slow the spread enough so that we don't need to bring back social distancing which actually harms the economy.

I'm very skeptical of that polling. Maybe it's accurate and this is just yet another example of America's cultural divide, but I can tell you right now that nowhere near 58% of adults in Nebraska plan on wearing masks always or most of the time, not even in Lincoln or Omaha. It's vaccines or bust as far as combatting this virus goes. Sorry to be blunt, but it's how I feel and the evidence seems to back me up. The vaccines work and everything else is just settling for less.

[DaleCooper]

I don't think people realize how much vaccine skepticism and hesitancy these booster shots are going to inspire. Booster shots every 8 months is shocking, if that's truly necessary (aside from the most vulnerable people in our population) then these vaccines are an embarrassing failure.

For the record, I don't believe that these vaccines are actually so useless as to need another in 8 months, but I'm saying that this announcement will destroy confidence in their effectiveness. 

[DaleCooper]

I don't think people realize how much vaccine skepticism and hesitancy these booster shots are going to inspire. Booster shots every 8 months is shocking, if that's truly necessary (aside from the most vulnerable people in our population) then these vaccines are an embarrassing failure.

For the record, I don't believe that these vaccines are actually so useless as to need another in 8 months, but I'm saying that this announcement will destroy confidence in their effectiveness. 

At this point I don't care about vaccine hesitancy. If Trumpists refuse to take the vaccine because they think it contains 5G chips and it's a plot by Hillary Clinton and Bill Gates to mind control them, they can feel free to get sick and die of COVID. As a vaccinated person I need to know the truth about how effective the vaccine is against the dominant variant. If the vaccine has lost some potency against Delta and I need a booster to protect myself, then I'll happily get one. It would be a far greater sin to withhold this information in the name of a "noble white lie", we all saw how "Masks Don't Work" turned out.

Besides, I don't understand the big negative about a booster when yearly flu shots are well established. There is a bizarre notion on this forum that we must continue to insist that the vaccine is an impenetrable COVID repelling force field, in the face of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary about Delta, and if one says anything negative about the vaccine, he is a mouth-breathing antivaxxer. No, we cannot hold on to this lie, it would be far more productive to figure out how to adjust, be it simply accepting the risk, or wearing a mask and staying away from crowds, or getting a booster, or whatever.

I actually do care about vaccine-hesitant people because I don't wish death and illness on everyone who disagrees with me politically. Obviously, I'm less sympathetic to the unmedicated lunatics that think the vaccine is a plot to infect them with microchips, but a lot of people are not getting the vaccine because they aren't getting any straight information from the authorities. Almost everyone I know who hasn't gotten the vaccine hasn't gotten it because they've either been bombarded with lies about how dangerous it is, or they've been bombarded with lies about how it doesn't actually protect them. This isn't the laymen's fault, this is the fault of incompetent government and public health officials who can't be straight with us, and a bloodthirsty media that peddles lies for views and website traffic.

If the government's official position is that most Americans need a new shot every 8 months because the initial vaccine is inadequate, then a lot of honest Americans are going to assume that this vaccine isn't of any help. Frankly, it's not even that illogical of an assumption given that our authorities have flip-flopped on everything so far.

[DaleCooper]

I was visiting my mom today and she was watching some Today Show segment where they were "just asking questions" about whether the vaccines work or not. I'm convinced the anti-vaccine rhetoric is intended to prolong the pandemic as much as possible, human life be damned.

[DaleCooper]

I think Democrats need to authorize a new stimulus check that only goes to people who have gotten the vaccine, and those without the vaccine can receive the deposit after getting vaccinated. That's the only way to increase the vaccinated population. Any other games with mask mandates, etc., are just wasting time.

[DaleCooper]

I think Democrats need to authorize a new stimulus check that only goes to people who have gotten the vaccine, and those without the vaccine can receive the deposit after getting vaccinated. That's the only way to increase the vaccinated population. Any other games with mask mandates, etc., are just wasting time.

or you could just you know have people going to door to where the unvaccinated live and forcing them to get shots... if it's really THAT much of an important thing wouldn't you be advocating for that?

i'd respect that position MUCH more than i do people calling for vaccine passports tbh

I'm not an authoritarian.

[DaleCooper]

maybe people should try losing a bit of weight, eating better in general, getting more sun, eating garlic or other stuff to boost their immune system to try preventing getting covid instead of stuff that's iffy at best like getting the [color=#ffffff]clot shot[/color] or wearing leather dog masks(cloth masks and n95s aren't enough, guys. its the cdc who makes the recommendations not me) or standing six feet apart

What does this even mean

look into the health risks of getting the covid-19 shot, especially the j&j one

Those are rare. I recommend against the J&J vaccine because it's not nearly as effective as the other ones, but literally any shot is more effective specifically against COVID than your generic health suggestions.

But I am increasingly of the belief that you are a troll, so maybe I shouldn't bother.

I was disappointed at having been given the J+J initially, but my family and I were high-fiving yesterday after NYT reported that J+J doesn't exhibit any decline in effectiveness over time.  So while all your Pfizer and Moderna shots are wearing off and you're gonna need annual boosters, my J+J seems like I'm set for life, although it also reported that a booster raises effectiveness by 800% so I'll be getting that as soon as it's approved as well.

The media had been tearing J&J a new one over the vaccine being mildly less effective and the cases of (I believe) less than ten deaths out of well over 13 million people who have taken the vaccine. While tragic, it's unclear whether these deaths were even due to the vaccine or not. It's the same thing with the (last I checked) less than 100 cases of Guillain Barré that may or may not be associated with the J&J vaccine. NYT in particular squeezed months of fear-mongering anti-vaccine headlines out of this so it's interesting that they broke the story of J&J's unique benefits and the fact that it seems to reduce chance of death in Delta cases, let alone earlier variants, by 95%.

[DaleCooper]

If Pfizer watered down their vaccine doses just to minimize what are already quite mild side effects, then that's incredibly disturbing in my opinion. If that's true then I'm especially not eager to give them the benefit of the doubt on booster shots, and if a third shot becomes necessary I'd much rather get it from Moderna or J&J if that's safe.

[DaleCooper]

I shared some links and commentary in the since-deleted thread on the pre-print study release on myocarditis in teenage boys that the Guardian and other infotainment outlets are sensationalizing.

That post is now lost because the thread was deleted either by forum moderators or OP, but here is a Twitter thread that gets into the details:

https://twitter.com/AngryCardio/status/1437023653443608577?s=20

Critical points:

1) I don’t think it’s reasonable to give estimates for the frequency of myocarditis/pericarditis based in this data set. No amount of adjustments will work.

2) It follows that comparison to COVID hospitalization rates are misplaced.

The media has been desperate for opportunities to sensationalize the dangers of the vaccine. First it was risks to pregnant women, then it was risks to reproductive health, then it was the 2 per million risk of often non-fatal blood clotting with J&J, then it was Guillain Barre, then it was decreased antibodies, and now it's this. There'll be more.

[DaleCooper]

Covid booster: Data shows third shots 'not appropriate' at this time, scientists say

An expert review of scientific evidence to date has concluded that Covid-19 vaccine booster shots are not needed at this time for the general public, a group of leading U.S. and international scientists said Monday in the peer-reviewed journal The Lancet.

The conclusion by scientists, including two senior Food and Drug Administration officials and the World Health Organization, came as studies continue to show the authorized Covid vaccines in the U.S. remain highly effective against severe disease and hospitalization caused by the fast-spreading delta variant.

While Covid vaccine effectiveness against mild disease may wane over time, protection against severe disease may persist, the scientists said. That’s because the body’s immune system is complex, they said, and has other defenses besides antibodies that may protect someone from getting seriously sick.

I disagree with this 100%. You'd think scientists have learned not to tell white lies to manipulate public opinion after the "Masks don't work" and "COVID is not airborne" debacles. At least they learned a little bit and are using "boosters are not necessary" rather than "boosters don't work" since they clearly work. There's also been no additional safety issue associated with boosters. Since the US has zero problems supplying vaccine now, necessity is not a reason to withhold boosters, especially since they can bring immunity levels to sterilizing immunity.

Also, if Biden actually withholds boosters so the US can supply vaccines to other countries, then he should be impeached and removed from office.

I agree. Those goddamn know-nothing scientists need to shut the hell up and get on board with booster shots. I'm gonna get two booster shots, one in each arm. And I'm gonna do it every week. Those foreigners shouldn't get any vaccines until I've had my fill.

[DaleCooper]

Jansen may provide less protection than Pfizer, but its one-shot use and the fact that it doesn't seem to wane makes it the better vaccine in my opinion. If more of those people who stopped after the first shot had gotten Johnson & Johnson's vaccine then our country would be in a bit better shape as far as the vaccination effort goes.

As for the FDA, I'm fine with them not calling for boosters aside from extremely vulnerable people. If the evidence isn't there yet, then it isn't there yet. "Trust the science" after all.

[DaleCooper]

I know I said I wasn't going to post here, but I feel I must for the first time in awhile. My trust in the vaccines has not wavered, but my trust in the American medical establishment as a whole is extremely low. The CDC is all over the place and the FDA seems to be even worse. I still trust certain individuals, but that is it.

I agree with this as well. From what I can gather, the Moderna vaccine doesn't have any meaningful decline in protection so far, and neither does Johnson & Johnson. Vulnerable people like the elderly may need boosters just to be safe, but healthy people that aren't at risk probably don't, unless they just want the added protection in the case of J&J due to its somewhat weaker protection. That seems to be the consensus on those two, from what I can gather.

The information regarding Pfizer on the other hand is a complete disaster. We have no idea what's wrong with it, why its immunity wanes, whether or not the booster immunity will wane just as fast, and we don't even know if only the protection against breakthrough cases wanes or if its protection against severe illnesses wane too. I've made my opinion clear on how I feel about wasting more credibility on prioritizing boosters when we still need to vaccinate all of the country's children and most of the third world. However, if Pfizer really is weak enough to put everybody who received it at risk again, then we have a right to know that. I got the Pfizer vaccine, and I want to know if I'm safe without a booster and I also want to know if these boosters are going to be a perpetual, endless thing, because if that's the case then I just want to receive the Moderna or J&J instead, so I need to know if that's safe too. Point being, I have the overwhelming feeling that we're not getting straight information and I find it frustrating that they can't just be straightforward about these things.