Obama on Small-Town Pennsylvania...

[opebo]

As always, he speaks the obvious truth.

[opebo]

Obama has never lived in the real America.  Therefore, his inability to connect with real Americans is unsurprising.

Has Bush or McCain, or for that matter Hillary, lived in the 'real america'.  No.  Poverty is usually a sign that one will not ever run for president.

[opebo]

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In wading through the bridgework about you dislike of the art of economics, I think I see the nub of your thesis. The US should go through periodic bouts of protectionism, so that the vulnerable can do some weight lifting, and muscle up, before having to get back into the dog eat dog global ring. Alas, the evidence is what happens is that the safety net causes coach potato behavior, and the muscles atrophy even more, until there comes a point that there is no fight left in the corpus; it's all adipose. Sometime adverting to empirical experience is useful. Protectionist regimes, even if meant to be temporary, ever caused an increase in economic fitness.

Tory has no idea what he is talking about, as 'competition' has nothing to do with economics.  Rather it is a politically imposed condition, forced upon workers by the State.  Another way to look at it is that the State must ensure that all benefits flow to the owners - the best way to do this is to make accessible to them the slave labourers of places such as China.  This undercuts the political position of workers in the US, who never had any power anyway, thus ensuring continued owner dominance.

The pretense that this is some sort of  immutable or 'neutral' 'law of economics' is assinine.  It is simply political power - one human bashing the others to make them pay.

[opebo]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

In wading through the bridgework about you dislike of the art of economics, I think I see the nub of your thesis. The US should go through periodic bouts of protectionism, so that the vulnerable can do some weight lifting, and muscle up, before having to get back into the dog eat dog global ring. Alas, the evidence is what happens is that the safety net causes coach potato behavior, and the muscles atrophy even more, until there comes a point that there is no fight left in the corpus; it's all adipose. Sometime adverting to empirical experience is useful. Protectionist regimes, even if meant to be temporary, ever caused an increase in economic fitness.

Tory has no idea what he is talking about, as 'competition' has nothing to do with economics.  Rather it is a politically imposed condition, forced upon workers by the State.  Another way to look at it is that the State must ensure that all benefits flow to the owners - the best way to do this is to make accessible to them the slave labourers of places such as China.  This undercuts the political position of workers in the US, who never had any power anyway, thus ensuring continued owner dominance.

The pretense that this is some sort of  immutable or 'neutral' 'law of economics' is assinine.  It is simply political power - one human bashing the others to make them pay.

Yea, people in China were livin' it up before western investment.

Your comment is completely irrelevant to my post, Bono, you simpleton. 

[opebo]

Uh oh! The Republicans and Hillary Hacks have the bulldozers out! They must be trying to make another mountain out of a molehill!

I can't believe you of all people are so anxious about towing the line for this guy.  He's a fraud.  The hope he claims to offer is a fraud.  His whole "search for self" is a fraud.  His claims to be able to unify the country and about how he loves and respects everyone are a fraud.  It's all fake.  How can you buy into it?

Because he is so enormously better, regardless, than the other two horrible right-wing monsters.  Obviously.

[opebo]

And expanding on Obama's personality, I really don't find his drug ridden emo search for self in his early years to be the least bit compelling or inspiring as a personal narrative.

OMG he had an identity crisis.  Why don't I think that's enough to make him President?  If anything, it just goes to show how many people out there are massively insecure with themselves and flock to someone who can show them the way.  If Obama were running to be the next Dr. Phil, I would have no problems.  Sadly, people seem to have confused The Real World with the real world.

Oh come on - the other choices are Hillary or the ridiculous McCain(Bush).

[opebo]

It might be a tangible hit against Obama. He's lucky he said this as late in the cycle as he did. It is just so wonderful when Dems one wants to lose make rhetorical errors - well, for some us. In event, the idea is to wound Obama, without killing him as a host.

Not much of a 'wound'.  Hicks wouldn't vote for him anyway, and anyone who would vote for him dislikes hicks.

[opebo]

It isn't the current situation either; Obama's describing the small towns of 25-30 years ago.

Back when there were still a few people living in them.

[opebo]

It might be a tangible hit against Obama. He's lucky he said this as late in the cycle as he did. It is just so wonderful when Dems one wants to lose make rhetorical errors - well, for some us. In event, the idea is to wound Obama, without killing him as a host.

Not much of a 'wound'.  Hicks wouldn't vote for him anyway, and anyone who would vote for him dislikes hicks.

I know this might shock one, but it may be that even some who are not hicks, and not Pubbies, might not find favor with crude and errant stereotyping by one who has never walked the walk of those who wear the shoes that Obama has never come close to wearing. Hickdom knows no boundaries really, if hickdom means being lazy about characterizing the other, with archetypes which just  makes one more comfortable with their own little impermeable bubble of a universe.

No, americans all stereotype.  If you think the 'anti-stereotyping vote' is going to get away from Obama, you're crazy, however.  The only people who resist stereotyping are liberals, and they're certainly not voting for Hillary or McCain.

[opebo]

It isn't the current situation either; Obama's describing the small towns of 25-30 years ago.

Back when there were still a few people living in them.

Most retrained, and got better jobs.

Thousands of miles away.

[opebo]

Why would one care about 'chinese workers', Torie?  One cares about oneself, and should act to protect oneself politically. 

'Free' trade is of course a ridiculous concept like all attempts to call any aspect of economics (imposition of political power) 'free'.  But one can broadly say that obviously there is a 'freedom' in the sense of no harm done to have trade with places like Germany, Belgium, or Austria.  But to suggest that one will benefit by importing the politics of China and Vietnam is pretty glaringly obvious self serving propaganda on the part of the owners, don't you think.

[opebo]

I thought we were discussing trade in goods and services, you know the stuff folks produce and purchase. Generally when it comes to trade in ideas, the US has a healthy balance of "payments" surplus, and this is good.

No, we were discussing politics, but I know your misunderstanding is a common one among rightwing dupes.

[opebo]

Your claim about the ephemeral products is extremely dubious, Torie, but even if it were accurate, it means that the only way for the US to receive the benefits of 'trade' in these 'ideas' is to forcibly impose itself and its 'legal system' upon other countries.  Before just a half-decade ago most Asian countries ignored such nonsense as 'copy-write' or 'patent'.  Some still due, humanely, in the area of drugs.

But aside from this point about the source of profit (force), it is worth noting that the 'information economy' about which you fantasize, even if it were real, would only provide incomes to a tiny elite.  Thus government action will be needed to redistribute, otherwise the vast majority will suffer (a condition they should not accept, politically, though perversely they always have).

[opebo]

...30 years of a declining quality of life has been covered up by credit and the fast growth of workforce participation.  

...our productivity has grown..

Snowguy, what has happened is the State has redistributed all that income that workers used to get directly to the top 0.5%.  'Trade' and 'economics' and 'business' and 'markets' and all that other nonsense are actually just aspects of political action, not in any way 'independent forces'.  What has happened is the top 0.5% has fullty regained political control, and simply taken back everything from the workers accept for what they got  before FDR - the minimum necessary to survive.

[opebo]

Exactly. Those industrial jobs are not coming back! No President, I don't care if they are Republican or Democrat, could've stopped the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs. If they had, we'd have much higher prices and less economic growth today.

Higher prices would be irrelevant to workers making the union wage (they're currently making nothing or $8 an hour).  As for 'economic growth', this is irrelevant to workers - just a wall street sort of made up figure.   Lastly speaking of 'stopping' outsourcing is silly - the State made it happen, no one else.  And they did it for the top 0.5%.

[opebo]

...and where is the all the prosperity located? The city itself or the outer areas? .5% above unemployment seems pretty hight for a big city.

All prosperity in the United States is located in the residences of the top 0.5% of the population.  Thusly, it is concentrated in the 'richest neighborhood' of any big city, but really more in certain parts of New York, Florida, and California.

[opebo]

Obama seems to be talking about an economy as it was 35 years ago.  That is called being out of touch.

Yes, the situation is infinitely worse now than it was 35 years ago.

[opebo]

...30 years of a declining quality of life has been covered up by credit and the fast growth of workforce participation. 

...our productivity has grown..

Snowguy, what has happened is the State has redistributed all that income that workers used to get directly to the top 0.5%.  'Trade' and 'economics' and 'business' and 'markets' and all that other nonsense are actually just aspects of political action, not in any way 'independent forces'.  What has happened is the top 0.5% has fullty regained political control, and simply taken back everything from the workers accept for what they got  before FDR - the minimum necessary to survive.

You could confiscate everything the top .5% earns and give it to the masses, and per capita, it would not have much impact. Do the math.

'Earns'?  This group does not 'earn' anything - it is all given to them gratis by the State (through their 'ownership'). 

[opebo]

Obama seems to be talking about an economy as it was 35 years ago.  That is called being out of touch.

Yes, the situation is infinitely worse now than it was 35 years ago.

For you, but only because they have stronger penalties for drugs and pedophilia.

There you go again with the simple-minded adhominem attacks.  Best you can do I suppose.   But my point was that worker's incomes are half what they were 35 years ago compared to the national income.   They've been robbed.

[opebo]

Pay and benefits at the 'high tech' jobs you fantasize about do not remotely match those provided by working in a steel mill 35 years ago.

[opebo]

Pay and benefits at the 'high tech' jobs you fantasize about do not remotely match those provided by working in a steel mill 35 years ago.

Well we can't really return to being an industrial economy much easier than we could return to being an agrarian state.  Standard of living has gone up across the board in the last 35 years, even in steel areas, so I don't know how much one can complain.

Actually it has not.  Median incomes per capita are much lower for the working class.  The only reason they have (almost) maintained their consumption is the wife is forced to work now.

Also aside from the problem of falling income, the huge increase in insecurety and the massive loss of benefits has been just as damaging.  Of course all this could be solved by a generous dole and national health care, but those that control will not allow it.

[opebo]

Newer industries have terrible pay and benefits, of course (why else would owners have it otherwise?).  There are some tiny exceptions that represent a percent or two of the work force, like 'microsoft' and such.

As for what Obama 'wants', you are simply engaging in fantasy.  No american president will be allowed to change any of the policies and practices which benefit the top 0.5%. 

[opebo]

You have not contributed any facts into this discussion J.J.

[opebo]

You have not contributed any facts into this discussion J.J.

Check the link, but, unfortunately for you it doesn't have pictures.

There is no link in this post, J.J.

[opebo]

You have not contributed any facts into this discussion J.J.

Check the link, but, unfortunately for you it doesn't have pictures.

There is no link in this post, J.J.

There have been several that I've posed on this thread, generally on the population increases in PA, employment in some of the areas in question, and some of the mayor's statements from the region (which another poster added). 

They generally show up as blue and you move the cursor over and click your mouse.  Try it.

Ah yes, those.  Irrelevant.