Yes, heavy metal music did corrupt youth and spread a bad message!

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Also the idea that progressive rock fans would hate hardcore because of the anti-punk simplicity stuff is pretty bizarre because a lot of post-hardcore is actually rather complex. Like seriously:


Those songs are even significantly more complex than those Iron Maiden ones where they basically just keep playing the same thing over and over and usually use a verse-chorus-verse structure.

Don't see what Maiden has to do with this tangent. They have a lot of progressive elements and influence (Genesis is Steve Harris's favorite band), but they're not a prog band.

There's more to prog than complexity for complexity sake (generally, obviously it's a big umbrella that includes Rock In Opposition, Zeuhl, and the really avant garde stuff), but like why is it so confusing that prog fans wouldn't like anything or at least not very much descended from punk lineage (Cardiacs notwithstanding)? Even besides the very obvious fandom rivalry stuff with the likes of the Sex Pistols specifically calling out prog for ruining rock, like, ELP made a full like album adapting Mussorgsky's classical compositions with rock instruments and a ten-keyboard setup. Is it that hard to see how far away that is from hardcore?

Yes, because that Assistant song is almost like a classical composition as a hardcore song. Also the Sex Pistols were over 40 years ago. (Even in the 90s it was still 20 years ago.)

Also in regards to simplistic punk music: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=242324.0

[Klobmentum Mutilated Herself]

Also the idea that progressive rock fans would hate hardcore because of the anti-punk simplicity stuff is pretty bizarre because a lot of post-hardcore is actually rather complex. Like seriously:


Those songs are even significantly more complex than those Iron Maiden ones where they basically just keep playing the same thing over and over and usually use a verse-chorus-verse structure.

Don't see what Maiden has to do with this tangent. They have a lot of progressive elements and influence (Genesis is Steve Harris's favorite band), but they're not a prog band.

There's more to prog than complexity for complexity sake (generally, obviously it's a big umbrella that includes Rock In Opposition, Zeuhl, and the really avant garde stuff), but like why is it so confusing that prog fans wouldn't like anything or at least not very much descended from punk lineage (Cardiacs notwithstanding)? Even besides the very obvious fandom rivalry stuff with the likes of the Sex Pistols specifically calling out prog for ruining rock, like, ELP made a full like album adapting Mussorgsky's classical compositions with rock instruments and a ten-keyboard setup. Is it that hard to see how far away that is from hardcore?

Yes, because that Assistant song is almost like a classical composition as a hardcore song. Also the Sex Pistols were over 40 years ago. (Even in the 90s it was still 20 years ago.)

Also in regards to simplistic punk music: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=242324.0

Jesus, are you seriously not getting exhausted with this thread? What even are you trying to say.

Alright. Note that I said "punk lineage". Yeah, plenty of people like hardcore and emo but not 70s punk, just like plenty of people like black metal but don't enjoy Black Sabbath or Judas Priest. Subgenres spin off from parent genres, and some subgenres retain more DNA than others, but there's a punk lineage that starts with Sex Pistols, Clash, etc. and a metal lineage that starts with Sabbath, Priest, etc. I don't see what the ages of the bands have to do with anything. Half this thread has been about Iron Maiden, who formed in 76 and put out their first album in 1980.

[7,052,770]

Another example: Can anyone imagine this insert in a metal record?

Or this poster being at a metal band's merch table?

Yes? Also, that second one is pretty woke. I'm surprised you like it.

[Klobmentum Mutilated Herself]

Also the idea that progressive rock fans would hate hardcore because of the anti-punk simplicity stuff is pretty bizarre because a lot of post-hardcore is actually rather complex. Like seriously:


Those songs are even significantly more complex than those Iron Maiden ones where they basically just keep playing the same thing over and over and usually use a verse-chorus-verse structure.

Don't see what Maiden has to do with this tangent. They have a lot of progressive elements and influence (Genesis is Steve Harris's favorite band), but they're not a prog band.

There's more to prog than complexity for complexity sake (generally, obviously it's a big umbrella that includes Rock In Opposition, Zeuhl, and the really avant garde stuff), but like why is it so confusing that prog fans wouldn't like anything or at least not very much descended from punk lineage (Cardiacs notwithstanding)? Even besides the very obvious fandom rivalry stuff with the likes of the Sex Pistols specifically calling out prog for ruining rock, like, ELP made a full like album adapting Mussorgsky's classical compositions with rock instruments and a ten-keyboard setup. Is it that hard to see how far away that is from hardcore?

Yes, because that Assistant song is almost like a classical composition as a hardcore song.

Also in regards to simplistic punk music: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=242324.0

OK, but they're different genres that appeal to completely different audiences with different sensibilities. What's so hard to grasp about that? Why are you trying to argue this? Do you seriously not see the irony between you saying "man, I just don't like metal because it's not hardcore and emo, also metalheads were dicks to us" on one hand and, on the other hand, saying "why don't prog fans like hardcore? It can't be because it's not prog! And why would they still care about punks being dicks to prog fans and musicians?"

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Another example: Can anyone imagine this insert in a metal record?

Or this poster being at a metal band's merch table?

Yes? Also, that second one is pretty woke. I'm surprised you like it.

It's a good type of woke. Not surprising since it predates 2014ish, which is when that stuff started to go off the deep end.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Also the idea that progressive rock fans would hate hardcore because of the anti-punk simplicity stuff is pretty bizarre because a lot of post-hardcore is actually rather complex. Like seriously:


Those songs are even significantly more complex than those Iron Maiden ones where they basically just keep playing the same thing over and over and usually use a verse-chorus-verse structure.

Don't see what Maiden has to do with this tangent. They have a lot of progressive elements and influence (Genesis is Steve Harris's favorite band), but they're not a prog band.

There's more to prog than complexity for complexity sake (generally, obviously it's a big umbrella that includes Rock In Opposition, Zeuhl, and the really avant garde stuff), but like why is it so confusing that prog fans wouldn't like anything or at least not very much descended from punk lineage (Cardiacs notwithstanding)? Even besides the very obvious fandom rivalry stuff with the likes of the Sex Pistols specifically calling out prog for ruining rock, like, ELP made a full like album adapting Mussorgsky's classical compositions with rock instruments and a ten-keyboard setup. Is it that hard to see how far away that is from hardcore?

Yes, because that Assistant song is almost like a classical composition as a hardcore song. Also the Sex Pistols were over 40 years ago. (Even in the 90s it was still 20 years ago.)

Also in regards to simplistic punk music: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=242324.0

Jesus, are you seriously not getting exhausted with this thread? What even are you trying to say.

LOL this thread is just four pages. You think that's going to exhaust me? Grace your eyes upon this: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=437017.0

Alright. Note that I said "punk lineage". Yeah, plenty of people like hardcore and emo but not 70s punk, just like plenty of people like black metal but don't enjoy Black Sabbath or Judas Priest. Subgenres spin off from parent genres, and some subgenres retain more DNA than others, but there's a punk lineage that starts with Sex Pistols, Clash, etc. and a metal lineage that starts with Sabbath, Priest, etc. I don't see what the ages of the bands have to do with anything. Half this thread has been about Iron Maiden, who formed in 76 and put out their first album in 1980.

I'm just saying it doesn't have much relevance to today or even twenty years ago. Anyway metalheads making fun of straightedge, veganism, and hardcore dancing definitely happened then. Also it's quoted by Euronymous that one reason he started black metal is he was angry at some laughably trivial things about death metal bands (like that they would play wearing shorts and T-shirts, lol), but he also attacked "hardcore morals", which I know a lot of metal purists hated the idea of. It is after all basically proto-wokeness, (why I like is explained in the above post.)

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Also the idea that progressive rock fans would hate hardcore because of the anti-punk simplicity stuff is pretty bizarre because a lot of post-hardcore is actually rather complex. Like seriously:


Those songs are even significantly more complex than those Iron Maiden ones where they basically just keep playing the same thing over and over and usually use a verse-chorus-verse structure.

Don't see what Maiden has to do with this tangent. They have a lot of progressive elements and influence (Genesis is Steve Harris's favorite band), but they're not a prog band.

There's more to prog than complexity for complexity sake (generally, obviously it's a big umbrella that includes Rock In Opposition, Zeuhl, and the really avant garde stuff), but like why is it so confusing that prog fans wouldn't like anything or at least not very much descended from punk lineage (Cardiacs notwithstanding)? Even besides the very obvious fandom rivalry stuff with the likes of the Sex Pistols specifically calling out prog for ruining rock, like, ELP made a full like album adapting Mussorgsky's classical compositions with rock instruments and a ten-keyboard setup. Is it that hard to see how far away that is from hardcore?

Yes, because that Assistant song is almost like a classical composition as a hardcore song.

Also in regards to simplistic punk music: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=242324.0

OK, but they're different genres that appeal to completely different audiences with different sensibilities. What's so hard to grasp about that? Why are you trying to argue this? Do you seriously not see the irony between you saying "man, I just don't like metal because it's not hardcore and emo, also metalheads were dicks to us" on one hand and, on the other hand, saying "why don't prog fans like hardcore? It can't be because it's not prog! And why would they still care about punks being dicks to prog fans and musicians?"

Of course. I'm just pointing out it's kind of laughable to dump on it because the Sex Pistols were so simplistic or whatever.

Even a "moshcore" song like this is arguably far more complex than Iron Maiden:

[Klobmentum Mutilated Herself]

Another example: Can anyone imagine this insert in a metal record?



Or this poster being at a metal band's merch table?

If you're trying to trudge up the "metal is right wing and full of toxic masculinity" trope punks say about metal, it's not true. Yes, there's lots of problematic aspects of metal and the genre's community that, especially as a queer leftist woman, I've seen firsthand, but there's a lot of that in punk to, and unlike you, I don't pretend my genre is a utopia. Punk isn't a utopia either. Dead Kennedys wouldn't have had to tell Nazi Punks to f off if they're weren't so many nazi punks.

Anyway, metal music has always been left wing. Sabbath's most popular album was Vietnam War protest album. 80s thrash was all about war and religion. Maiden too. Yeah, there's a lot meaningless "blah blah blah DEATH blah blah DRAGONS blah SATAN" too, but with the exception of black metal, whenever metal gets serious, which is often, it's left wing. And the masculinity of it, from the leather and denim to the subject matter, has always been on a spectrum between tongue-in-cheek and a cover for a something deeper, i.e., these macho manly men having feelings too. Take Fade to Black, which has already been mentioned, for instance; that's the most sensitive, authentic  song depicting suicidal thoughts I've ever heard. Or another Metallica song, Master of Puppets, about Hetfield's addictions, later elaborated on Load and St. Anger. Or Megadeth, problematic as Mustaine's lyrics can be sometimes, especially recently, the man pours it all on his sleeve. Or Black Sabbath's changes, then most emotional breakup song you'll ever hear.or literally anything Chuck Schuldiner ever wrote. These aren't obscure underground bands; these are the ambassadors, the inner circle Hall of Famers of heavy metal. The macho man stuff is a cover and always has been.

I prefer metal musicians to metal fans every day of the week. The chuddiness is higher concentrated in fans than in the bands. But I'm in it for the music, and I'll defend the music any day of the week.

[Klobmentum Mutilated Herself]

Also the idea that progressive rock fans would hate hardcore because of the anti-punk simplicity stuff is pretty bizarre because a lot of post-hardcore is actually rather complex. Like seriously:


Those songs are even significantly more complex than those Iron Maiden ones where they basically just keep playing the same thing over and over and usually use a verse-chorus-verse structure.

Don't see what Maiden has to do with this tangent. They have a lot of progressive elements and influence (Genesis is Steve Harris's favorite band), but they're not a prog band.

There's more to prog than complexity for complexity sake (generally, obviously it's a big umbrella that includes Rock In Opposition, Zeuhl, and the really avant garde stuff), but like why is it so confusing that prog fans wouldn't like anything or at least not very much descended from punk lineage (Cardiacs notwithstanding)? Even besides the very obvious fandom rivalry stuff with the likes of the Sex Pistols specifically calling out prog for ruining rock, like, ELP made a full like album adapting Mussorgsky's classical compositions with rock instruments and a ten-keyboard setup. Is it that hard to see how far away that is from hardcore?

Yes, because that Assistant song is almost like a classical composition as a hardcore song.

Also in regards to simplistic punk music: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=242324.0

OK, but they're different genres that appeal to completely different audiences with different sensibilities. What's so hard to grasp about that? Why are you trying to argue this? Do you seriously not see the irony between you saying "man, I just don't like metal because it's not hardcore and emo, also metalheads were dicks to us" on one hand and, on the other hand, saying "why don't prog fans like hardcore? It can't be because it's not prog! And why would they still care about punks being dicks to prog fans and musicians?"

Of course. I'm just pointing out it's kind of laughable to dump on it because the Sex Pistols were so simplistic or whatever.

Even a "moshcore" song like this is arguably far more complex than Iron Maiden:

Maiden isn't a prog band. Why do you keep bringing then up when you're talking about prog?

And it's not just the simplicity of the early punk bands, although yes, that was and is a part of it. Remember that these bands would hold up banners and wear t-shirts saying "Pink Floyd sucks", talking about how those Charterhouse boys were taking rock and roll away from the working man, and having the press side with punk at every turn over prog (while punk got got to keep calling itself anti-establishment). There has never in the history of popular music, to my knowledge, been an assault from one genre towards another quite like punk dealt towards prog in the 70s. And it was the musicians, not just the fans.

Also remember that, unlike metal, prog isn't very transgenrational. The average prog fan was is an over-55 British person who liked it in the 70s and likes it now; of course they're not going to listen to underground 90s scenes that descended from the descendents of their most hated genre.

Ultimately, though, these are very very different genres. Far more different than even metal and punk/hardcore are from each other. Of course nobody is taking listening to Thick As A Brick and [insert Knocked Loose album here] back to back.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Also the idea that progressive rock fans would hate hardcore because of the anti-punk simplicity stuff is pretty bizarre because a lot of post-hardcore is actually rather complex. Like seriously:


Those songs are even significantly more complex than those Iron Maiden ones where they basically just keep playing the same thing over and over and usually use a verse-chorus-verse structure.

Don't see what Maiden has to do with this tangent. They have a lot of progressive elements and influence (Genesis is Steve Harris's favorite band), but they're not a prog band.

There's more to prog than complexity for complexity sake (generally, obviously it's a big umbrella that includes Rock In Opposition, Zeuhl, and the really avant garde stuff), but like why is it so confusing that prog fans wouldn't like anything or at least not very much descended from punk lineage (Cardiacs notwithstanding)? Even besides the very obvious fandom rivalry stuff with the likes of the Sex Pistols specifically calling out prog for ruining rock, like, ELP made a full like album adapting Mussorgsky's classical compositions with rock instruments and a ten-keyboard setup. Is it that hard to see how far away that is from hardcore?

Yes, because that Assistant song is almost like a classical composition as a hardcore song.

Also in regards to simplistic punk music: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=242324.0

OK, but they're different genres that appeal to completely different audiences with different sensibilities. What's so hard to grasp about that? Why are you trying to argue this? Do you seriously not see the irony between you saying "man, I just don't like metal because it's not hardcore and emo, also metalheads were dicks to us" on one hand and, on the other hand, saying "why don't prog fans like hardcore? It can't be because it's not prog! And why would they still care about punks being dicks to prog fans and musicians?"

Of course. I'm just pointing out it's kind of laughable to dump on it because the Sex Pistols were so simplistic or whatever.

Even a "moshcore" song like this is arguably far more complex than Iron Maiden:

Maiden isn't a prog band. Why do you keep bringing then up when you're talking about prog?

And it's not just the simplicity of the early punk bands, although yes, that was and is a part of it. Remember that these bands would hold up banners and wear t-shirts saying "Pink Floyd sucks", talking about how those Charterhouse boys were taking rock and roll away from the working man, and having the press side with punk at every turn over prog (while punk got got to keep calling itself anti-establishment). There has never in the history of popular music, to my knowledge, been an assault from one genre towards another quite like punk dealt towards prog in the 70s. And it was the musicians, not just the fans.

Also remember that, unlike metal, prog isn't very transgenrational. The average prog fan was is an over-55 British person who liked it in the 70s and likes it now; of course they're not going to listen to underground 90s scenes that descended from the descendents of their most hated genre.

Ultimately, though, these are very very different genres. Far more different than even metal and punk/hardcore are from each other. Of course nobody is taking listening to Thick As A Brick and [insert Knocked Loose album here] back to back.

Funny, my dad has prog records. He was playing a bunch one night and he put on a Rick Wakeman one...I just said it was really weird. (Also I kind of love the irony in that I'm the one my parents had to consult when they wanted to buy a new turntable to listen to all of their vinyl that was released before I was born, LOL.)

I was mostly just addressing your point about being hostile to punk due to subculture rivalries. BTW I never even knew of that "Pink Floyd sucks" thing. My experience begins about 20 years ago when metalheads were so hostile to the hardcore kids and things like Friends Stand United were despised by metalheads.

If you're trying to trudge up the "metal is right wing and full of toxic masculinity" trope punks say about metal, it's not true. Yes, there's lots of problematic aspects of metal and the genre's community that, especially as a queer leftist woman, I've seen firsthand, but there's a lot of that in punk to, and unlike you, I don't pretend my genre is a utopia. Punk isn't a utopia either. Dead Kennedys wouldn't have had to tell Nazi Punks to f off if they're weren't so many nazi punks.

Anyway, metal music has always been left wing. Sabbath's most popular album was Vietnam War protest album. 80s thrash was all about war and religion. Maiden too. Yeah, there's a lot meaningless "blah blah blah DEATH blah blah DRAGONS blah SATAN" too, but with the exception of black metal, whenever metal gets serious, which is often, it's left wing. And the masculinity of it, from the leather and denim to the subject matter, has always been on a spectrum between tongue-in-cheek and a cover for a something deeper, i.e., these macho manly men having feelings too. Take Fade to Black, which has already been mentioned, for instance; that's the most sensitive, authentic  song depicting suicidal thoughts I've ever heard. Or another Metallica song, Master of Puppets, about Hetfield's addictions, later elaborated on Load and St. Anger. Or Megadeth, problematic as Mustaine's lyrics can be sometimes, especially recently, the man pours it all on his sleeve. Or Black Sabbath's changes, then most emotional breakup song you'll ever hear.or literally anything Chuck Schuldiner ever wrote. These aren't obscure underground bands; these are the ambassadors, the inner circle Hall of Famers of heavy metal. The macho man stuff is a cover and always has been.

I prefer metal musicians to metal fans every day of the week. The chuddiness is higher concentrated in fans than in the bands. But I'm in it for the music, and I'll defend the music any day of the week.

Yeah I know of the Nazi punks but again that's an ancient scene. I've never heard of a Nazi melodic hardcore band or Nazi emo band.

And if that sort of stuff is so friendly then why do no metal bands or metal records have them?

[Klobmentum Mutilated Herself]

Funny, my dad has prog records. He was playing a bunch one night and he put on a Rick Wakeman one...I just said it was really weird. (Also I kind of love the irony in that I'm the one my parents had to consult when they wanted to buy a new turntable to listen to all of their vinyl that was released before I was born, LOL.)

Yes. It makes sense that you would say it's weird, because it's a completely different genre with basically nothing in common. Less stuff in common between prog and punk than there is between metal and punk. So why are you so insistent that prog fans should like your hardcore music — which didn't sound very complex to me, at least not in a progressive sense (complex =/= progressive, though they're similar) not that prog is about complexity for complexity's sake.

I was mostly just addressing your point about being hostile to punk due to subculture rivalries. BTW I never even knew of that "Pink Floyd sucks" thing.

It's one thing to like hardcore but not o.g. punk, but I'm surprised that someone as obsessed as you isn't that familiar with the history of your genre's direct ancestor. Punk wasn't simple exclusively for simplicity's sake, it was in large part a protest against the complexity of what rock had became in the 70s, i.e., prog, metal, psychedelic, etc. It wasn't fancy bickering alone — it was the musicians and the music.

Doubly so since you care so much about what is and isn't real emo. If someone likes death metal but not Black Sabbath and they also do care about metal genre labels, then it's not surprising if they don't care about the lineage. But if someone likes death metal and dislikes Black Sabbath while still caring about genre labels, then they probably know quite a bit about how the lineage of metal starts with Sabbath and evolved from there.

My experience begins about 20 years ago when metalheads were so hostile to the hardcore kids and things like Friends Stand United were despised by metalheads.

The 90s and aughts were a weird time in metal history, an era that hasn't exactly ended today. The lineage of metal was pretty clear in the 70s and 80s. You start with, Sabbath and Purple, which takes us to Priest and Motörhead, then the New Wave of British Heavy Metal lead by Maiden and a remaining of Priest (as a reaction to punk grouping the first metal wave in with the rock establishment it was against), which gives us black metal and thrash metal, which leads to death metal and doom, and then grunge happens in 1991 and pushes all of the 80s metal into the background. A lot of bands break up, the 80s thrash bands soften their sounds for the radio, metal is a toxic label that won't sell anymore. Aside from Pantera, there weren't any metal bands in that era with respected metal street cred who got mainstream attention. Them nu metal come in using the metal name but lacking any significant metal DNA and worsens the already dead presence of metal in the mainstream.

That's not to say grunge killed metal in the 90s, but it forced metal to become something that was exclusively niche, so while the metal genres that had been evolved by the late 80s shared a linear evolution, the 90s created all these splintered metal subgenres that, even though they shared a common ancestor in Black Sabbath, weren't related to each other the same way thrash and death were. Death/doom, gothic, tech death, blackened death, we were seeing a lot of very specific sub-subgenres in the underground, and while an 80s metalhead who listened to Megadeth also had Maiden albums in their collection, a 90s metalhead who listened to Gorguts wasn't listening also to Paradise Lost. The internet made this disperse splintering of niche metal subgenres even less unified.


My point is, when you talk about "metalheads did this in 20 years ago", I have no idea who or what specifically you're talking about, because from the 90s until today, "metalhead" can mean a million different things.

In the aughts, I was listening to Opeth, Nightwish, Devin Townsend, The Gathering, After Forever, Porcupine Tree, Dream Theater, Within Temptation, Anathema, Paradise Lost, New Maiden, the 80s thrash bands collectively returning to thrash, and the classics from the 70s and 80s. And a lot of that stuff, I was getting into from the prog scene rather than the metal scene; in fact, most of those prog metal bands have more prog rock DNA than metal DNA, and a lot of the fans were middle aged 70s prog fans looking for a modern fix. These weren't fanbases that were interested in harassing fans of other genres. Because of the dispersion of metal post-grunge, that was a fansbase that looked nothing like 00s black metal fans who looked nothing like 00s industrial metal fans. And a lot of those bands are have women band members, so the fanbases had as many women as there were men — and if we're being honest, half of all male fans of those female metal artists are girls now. Not that I'd know anything about that.

Yeah I know of the Nazi punks but again that's an ancient scene. I've never heard of a Nazi melodic hardcore band or Nazi emo band.

So? Iron Maiden is ancient by the same token, and they're still massively relevant to metal world. Maybe the punk/hardcore world is quicker to dispose of their pioneers than metal, but ithe DNA is still there, and if you're trying to paint metal as right wing, then it's fair to point out that your genre isn't a progressive utopia either. I admit metal has its issues. You handwave any criticisms of your genre.

And if that sort of stuff is so friendly then why do no metal bands or metal records have them?

It's a different genre with a different visual and audio language of how to express itself. I wouldn't be shocked to see something like that a metal show — I don't go to that many. But metal is really more focused on the music than the visuals, largely. Both metalheads and punks wear battle jackets, for example, but a metal battle jacket tends to exclusively be for band patches, while punks put their band patches side by side with a esthetic patches. There's nothing wrong with that, but these genres express themselves differently. My point was, that if you were trying to reinforce the stereotype about toxic masculinity in metal, that there's a lot of sensitivity, openness, emotion, and leftism in metal.

[Badger]

The thing is I just don't like those songs. Because they aren't emo, hardcore, pop-punk, orgcore (I consider this pop-punk but not everyone does), post-hardcore, melodic metalcore, grindcore, powerviolence, screamo, post-rock, certain types of alternative and indie rock or Bob Dylan. And that's basically the entire set of music that I like.

Was it that hard to say that? Because you started off with "Pat Robertson was right! It's the Devil's music!" then it was "I can't mosh to it and Bruce Dickinson can't sing" then it was "there's no twink ballads or screaming". There is nothing wrong with not liking metal, or any genre. I don't like emo, hardcore, or really anything that stems from punk, but I don't put down the music when it's not for me anyway. You instead took three pages of disparaging and misrepresenting a genre you know nothing about, starting with a false pretense that you probably don't even believe just to say the innocent, honest statement, that you don't like heavy metal.

Subculture rivalries.

 "rivalry" assumes that 1 subculture gives a sh**t about the other. I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of metal heads don't give a rat's ass enough to care, let alone disparage, groups like Sunny day real estate, It's setera et cetera et cetera et cetera.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The thing is I just don't like those songs. Because they aren't emo, hardcore, pop-punk, orgcore (I consider this pop-punk but not everyone does), post-hardcore, melodic metalcore, grindcore, powerviolence, screamo, post-rock, certain types of alternative and indie rock or Bob Dylan. And that's basically the entire set of music that I like.

Was it that hard to say that? Because you started off with "Pat Robertson was right! It's the Devil's music!" then it was "I can't mosh to it and Bruce Dickinson can't sing" then it was "there's no twink ballads or screaming". There is nothing wrong with not liking metal, or any genre. I don't like emo, hardcore, or really anything that stems from punk, but I don't put down the music when it's not for me anyway. You instead took three pages of disparaging and misrepresenting a genre you know nothing about, starting with a false pretense that you probably don't even believe just to say the innocent, honest statement, that you don't like heavy metal.

Subculture rivalries.

 "rivalry" assumes that 1 subculture gives a sh**t about the other. I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of metal heads don't give a rat's ass enough to care, let alone disparage, groups like Sunny day real estate, It's setera et cetera et cetera et cetera.

LOL dude I trolled metal forums in high school. Thus I also picked up on some of the things they talked about and saw their other posts. This is simply not true, LOL.

Also note this Euronymous quote at 5:30:

[Badger]

Also the idea that progressive rock fans would hate hardcore because of the anti-punk simplicity stuff is pretty bizarre because a lot of post-hardcore is actually rather complex. Like seriously:


Those songs are even significantly more complex than those Iron Maiden ones where they basically just keep playing the same thing over and over and usually use a verse-chorus-verse structure.

Don't see what Maiden has to do with this tangent. They have a lot of progressive elements and influence (Genesis is Steve Harris's favorite band), but they're not a prog band.

There's more to prog than complexity for complexity sake (generally, obviously it's a big umbrella that includes Rock In Opposition, Zeuhl, and the really avant garde stuff), but like why is it so confusing that prog fans wouldn't like anything or at least not very much descended from punk lineage (Cardiacs notwithstanding)? Even besides the very obvious fandom rivalry stuff with the likes of the Sex Pistols specifically calling out prog for ruining rock, like, ELP made a full like album adapting Mussorgsky's classical compositions with rock instruments and a ten-keyboard setup. Is it that hard to see how far away that is from hardcore?

Yes, because that Assistant song is almost like a classical composition as a hardcore song.

Also in regards to simplistic punk music: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=242324.0

OK, but they're different genres that appeal to completely different audiences with different sensibilities. What's so hard to grasp about that? Why are you trying to argue this? Do you seriously not see the irony between you saying "man, I just don't like metal because it's not hardcore and emo, also metalheads were dicks to us" on one hand and, on the other hand, saying "why don't prog fans like hardcore? It can't be because it's not prog! And why would they still care about punks being dicks to prog fans and musicians?"

Of course. I'm just pointing out it's kind of laughable to dump on it because the Sex Pistols were so simplistic or whatever.

Even a "moshcore" song like this is arguably far more complex than Iron Maiden:

Maiden isn't a prog band. Why do you keep bringing then up when you're talking about prog?

And it's not just the simplicity of the early punk bands, although yes, that was and is a part of it. Remember that these bands would hold up banners and wear t-shirts saying "Pink Floyd sucks", talking about how those Charterhouse boys were taking rock and roll away from the working man, and having the press side with punk at every turn over prog (while punk got got to keep calling itself anti-establishment). There has never in the history of popular music, to my knowledge, been an assault from one genre towards another quite like punk dealt towards prog in the 70s. And it was the musicians, not just the fans.

Also remember that, unlike metal, prog isn't very transgenrational. The average prog fan was is an over-55 British person who liked it in the 70s and likes it now; of course they're not going to listen to underground 90s scenes that descended from the descendents of their most hated genre.

Ultimately, though, these are very very different genres. Far more different than even metal and punk/hardcore are from each other. Of course nobody is taking listening to Thick As A Brick and [insert Knocked Loose album here] back to back.

Funny, my dad has prog records. He was playing a bunch one night and he put on a Rick Wakeman one...I just said it was really weird. (Also I kind of love the irony in that I'm the one my parents had to consult when they wanted to buy a new turntable to listen to all of their vinyl that was released before I was born, LOL.)

I was mostly just addressing your point about being hostile to punk due to subculture rivalries. BTW I never even knew of that "Pink Floyd sucks" thing. My experience begins about 20 years ago when metalheads were so hostile to the hardcore kids and things like Friends Stand United were despised by metalheads.

If you're trying to trudge up the "metal is right wing and full of toxic masculinity" trope punks say about metal, it's not true. Yes, there's lots of problematic aspects of metal and the genre's community that, especially as a queer leftist woman, I've seen firsthand, but there's a lot of that in punk to, and unlike you, I don't pretend my genre is a utopia. Punk isn't a utopia either. Dead Kennedys wouldn't have had to tell Nazi Punks to f off if they're weren't so many nazi punks.

Anyway, metal music has always been left wing. Sabbath's most popular album was Vietnam War protest album. 80s thrash was all about war and religion. Maiden too. Yeah, there's a lot meaningless "blah blah blah DEATH blah blah DRAGONS blah SATAN" too, but with the exception of black metal, whenever metal gets serious, which is often, it's left wing. And the masculinity of it, from the leather and denim to the subject matter, has always been on a spectrum between tongue-in-cheek and a cover for a something deeper, i.e., these macho manly men having feelings too. Take Fade to Black, which has already been mentioned, for instance; that's the most sensitive, authentic  song depicting suicidal thoughts I've ever heard. Or another Metallica song, Master of Puppets, about Hetfield's addictions, later elaborated on Load and St. Anger. Or Megadeth, problematic as Mustaine's lyrics can be sometimes, especially recently, the man pours it all on his sleeve. Or Black Sabbath's changes, then most emotional breakup song you'll ever hear.or literally anything Chuck Schuldiner ever wrote. These aren't obscure underground bands; these are the ambassadors, the inner circle Hall of Famers of heavy metal. The macho man stuff is a cover and always has been.

I prefer metal musicians to metal fans every day of the week. The chuddiness is higher concentrated in fans than in the bands. But I'm in it for the music, and I'll defend the music any day of the week.

Yeah I know of the Nazi punks but again that's an ancient scene. I've never heard of a Nazi melodic hardcore band or Nazi emo band.

And if that sort of stuff is so friendly then why do no metal bands or metal records have them?

Punk has a MUCH stronger history of having Nazi subculture, albeit a tiny minority, than metal.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Also the idea that progressive rock fans would hate hardcore because of the anti-punk simplicity stuff is pretty bizarre because a lot of post-hardcore is actually rather complex. Like seriously:


Those songs are even significantly more complex than those Iron Maiden ones where they basically just keep playing the same thing over and over and usually use a verse-chorus-verse structure.

Don't see what Maiden has to do with this tangent. They have a lot of progressive elements and influence (Genesis is Steve Harris's favorite band), but they're not a prog band.

There's more to prog than complexity for complexity sake (generally, obviously it's a big umbrella that includes Rock In Opposition, Zeuhl, and the really avant garde stuff), but like why is it so confusing that prog fans wouldn't like anything or at least not very much descended from punk lineage (Cardiacs notwithstanding)? Even besides the very obvious fandom rivalry stuff with the likes of the Sex Pistols specifically calling out prog for ruining rock, like, ELP made a full like album adapting Mussorgsky's classical compositions with rock instruments and a ten-keyboard setup. Is it that hard to see how far away that is from hardcore?

Yes, because that Assistant song is almost like a classical composition as a hardcore song.

Also in regards to simplistic punk music: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=242324.0

OK, but they're different genres that appeal to completely different audiences with different sensibilities. What's so hard to grasp about that? Why are you trying to argue this? Do you seriously not see the irony between you saying "man, I just don't like metal because it's not hardcore and emo, also metalheads were dicks to us" on one hand and, on the other hand, saying "why don't prog fans like hardcore? It can't be because it's not prog! And why would they still care about punks being dicks to prog fans and musicians?"

Of course. I'm just pointing out it's kind of laughable to dump on it because the Sex Pistols were so simplistic or whatever.

Even a "moshcore" song like this is arguably far more complex than Iron Maiden:

Maiden isn't a prog band. Why do you keep bringing then up when you're talking about prog?

And it's not just the simplicity of the early punk bands, although yes, that was and is a part of it. Remember that these bands would hold up banners and wear t-shirts saying "Pink Floyd sucks", talking about how those Charterhouse boys were taking rock and roll away from the working man, and having the press side with punk at every turn over prog (while punk got got to keep calling itself anti-establishment). There has never in the history of popular music, to my knowledge, been an assault from one genre towards another quite like punk dealt towards prog in the 70s. And it was the musicians, not just the fans.

Also remember that, unlike metal, prog isn't very transgenrational. The average prog fan was is an over-55 British person who liked it in the 70s and likes it now; of course they're not going to listen to underground 90s scenes that descended from the descendents of their most hated genre.

Ultimately, though, these are very very different genres. Far more different than even metal and punk/hardcore are from each other. Of course nobody is taking listening to Thick As A Brick and [insert Knocked Loose album here] back to back.

Funny, my dad has prog records. He was playing a bunch one night and he put on a Rick Wakeman one...I just said it was really weird. (Also I kind of love the irony in that I'm the one my parents had to consult when they wanted to buy a new turntable to listen to all of their vinyl that was released before I was born, LOL.)

I was mostly just addressing your point about being hostile to punk due to subculture rivalries. BTW I never even knew of that "Pink Floyd sucks" thing. My experience begins about 20 years ago when metalheads were so hostile to the hardcore kids and things like Friends Stand United were despised by metalheads.

If you're trying to trudge up the "metal is right wing and full of toxic masculinity" trope punks say about metal, it's not true. Yes, there's lots of problematic aspects of metal and the genre's community that, especially as a queer leftist woman, I've seen firsthand, but there's a lot of that in punk to, and unlike you, I don't pretend my genre is a utopia. Punk isn't a utopia either. Dead Kennedys wouldn't have had to tell Nazi Punks to f off if they're weren't so many nazi punks.

Anyway, metal music has always been left wing. Sabbath's most popular album was Vietnam War protest album. 80s thrash was all about war and religion. Maiden too. Yeah, there's a lot meaningless "blah blah blah DEATH blah blah DRAGONS blah SATAN" too, but with the exception of black metal, whenever metal gets serious, which is often, it's left wing. And the masculinity of it, from the leather and denim to the subject matter, has always been on a spectrum between tongue-in-cheek and a cover for a something deeper, i.e., these macho manly men having feelings too. Take Fade to Black, which has already been mentioned, for instance; that's the most sensitive, authentic  song depicting suicidal thoughts I've ever heard. Or another Metallica song, Master of Puppets, about Hetfield's addictions, later elaborated on Load and St. Anger. Or Megadeth, problematic as Mustaine's lyrics can be sometimes, especially recently, the man pours it all on his sleeve. Or Black Sabbath's changes, then most emotional breakup song you'll ever hear.or literally anything Chuck Schuldiner ever wrote. These aren't obscure underground bands; these are the ambassadors, the inner circle Hall of Famers of heavy metal. The macho man stuff is a cover and always has been.

I prefer metal musicians to metal fans every day of the week. The chuddiness is higher concentrated in fans than in the bands. But I'm in it for the music, and I'll defend the music any day of the week.

Yeah I know of the Nazi punks but again that's an ancient scene. I've never heard of a Nazi melodic hardcore band or Nazi emo band.

And if that sort of stuff is so friendly then why do no metal bands or metal records have them?

Punk has a MUCH stronger history of having Nazi subculture, albeit a tiny minority, than metal.

But not melodic hardcore or emo.

[Badger]

Also the idea that progressive rock fans would hate hardcore because of the anti-punk simplicity stuff is pretty bizarre because a lot of post-hardcore is actually rather complex. Like seriously:


Those songs are even significantly more complex than those Iron Maiden ones where they basically just keep playing the same thing over and over and usually use a verse-chorus-verse structure.

Don't see what Maiden has to do with this tangent. They have a lot of progressive elements and influence (Genesis is Steve Harris's favorite band), but they're not a prog band.

There's more to prog than complexity for complexity sake (generally, obviously it's a big umbrella that includes Rock In Opposition, Zeuhl, and the really avant garde stuff), but like why is it so confusing that prog fans wouldn't like anything or at least not very much descended from punk lineage (Cardiacs notwithstanding)? Even besides the very obvious fandom rivalry stuff with the likes of the Sex Pistols specifically calling out prog for ruining rock, like, ELP made a full like album adapting Mussorgsky's classical compositions with rock instruments and a ten-keyboard setup. Is it that hard to see how far away that is from hardcore?

Yes, because that Assistant song is almost like a classical composition as a hardcore song.

Also in regards to simplistic punk music: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=242324.0

OK, but they're different genres that appeal to completely different audiences with different sensibilities. What's so hard to grasp about that? Why are you trying to argue this? Do you seriously not see the irony between you saying "man, I just don't like metal because it's not hardcore and emo, also metalheads were dicks to us" on one hand and, on the other hand, saying "why don't prog fans like hardcore? It can't be because it's not prog! And why would they still care about punks being dicks to prog fans and musicians?"

Of course. I'm just pointing out it's kind of laughable to dump on it because the Sex Pistols were so simplistic or whatever.

Even a "moshcore" song like this is arguably far more complex than Iron Maiden:

Maiden isn't a prog band. Why do you keep bringing then up when you're talking about prog?

And it's not just the simplicity of the early punk bands, although yes, that was and is a part of it. Remember that these bands would hold up banners and wear t-shirts saying "Pink Floyd sucks", talking about how those Charterhouse boys were taking rock and roll away from the working man, and having the press side with punk at every turn over prog (while punk got got to keep calling itself anti-establishment). There has never in the history of popular music, to my knowledge, been an assault from one genre towards another quite like punk dealt towards prog in the 70s. And it was the musicians, not just the fans.

Also remember that, unlike metal, prog isn't very transgenrational. The average prog fan was is an over-55 British person who liked it in the 70s and likes it now; of course they're not going to listen to underground 90s scenes that descended from the descendents of their most hated genre.

Ultimately, though, these are very very different genres. Far more different than even metal and punk/hardcore are from each other. Of course nobody is taking listening to Thick As A Brick and [insert Knocked Loose album here] back to back.

Funny, my dad has prog records. He was playing a bunch one night and he put on a Rick Wakeman one...I just said it was really weird. (Also I kind of love the irony in that I'm the one my parents had to consult when they wanted to buy a new turntable to listen to all of their vinyl that was released before I was born, LOL.)

I was mostly just addressing your point about being hostile to punk due to subculture rivalries. BTW I never even knew of that "Pink Floyd sucks" thing. My experience begins about 20 years ago when metalheads were so hostile to the hardcore kids and things like Friends Stand United were despised by metalheads.

If you're trying to trudge up the "metal is right wing and full of toxic masculinity" trope punks say about metal, it's not true. Yes, there's lots of problematic aspects of metal and the genre's community that, especially as a queer leftist woman, I've seen firsthand, but there's a lot of that in punk to, and unlike you, I don't pretend my genre is a utopia. Punk isn't a utopia either. Dead Kennedys wouldn't have had to tell Nazi Punks to f off if they're weren't so many nazi punks.

Anyway, metal music has always been left wing. Sabbath's most popular album was Vietnam War protest album. 80s thrash was all about war and religion. Maiden too. Yeah, there's a lot meaningless "blah blah blah DEATH blah blah DRAGONS blah SATAN" too, but with the exception of black metal, whenever metal gets serious, which is often, it's left wing. And the masculinity of it, from the leather and denim to the subject matter, has always been on a spectrum between tongue-in-cheek and a cover for a something deeper, i.e., these macho manly men having feelings too. Take Fade to Black, which has already been mentioned, for instance; that's the most sensitive, authentic  song depicting suicidal thoughts I've ever heard. Or another Metallica song, Master of Puppets, about Hetfield's addictions, later elaborated on Load and St. Anger. Or Megadeth, problematic as Mustaine's lyrics can be sometimes, especially recently, the man pours it all on his sleeve. Or Black Sabbath's changes, then most emotional breakup song you'll ever hear.or literally anything Chuck Schuldiner ever wrote. These aren't obscure underground bands; these are the ambassadors, the inner circle Hall of Famers of heavy metal. The macho man stuff is a cover and always has been.

I prefer metal musicians to metal fans every day of the week. The chuddiness is higher concentrated in fans than in the bands. But I'm in it for the music, and I'll defend the music any day of the week.

Yeah I know of the Nazi punks but again that's an ancient scene. I've never heard of a Nazi melodic hardcore band or Nazi emo band.

And if that sort of stuff is so friendly then why do no metal bands or metal records have them?

Punk has a MUCH stronger history of having Nazi subculture, albeit a tiny minority, than metal.

But not melodic hardcore or emo.

But both genres have their direct roots in punk.

I'm not saying that melodic hardcore or emo have a Nazi subculture. I'm saying it's ridiculous and fundamentally incorrect  to label either as having a significant  presence based on such tenuous connections.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Also the idea that progressive rock fans would hate hardcore because of the anti-punk simplicity stuff is pretty bizarre because a lot of post-hardcore is actually rather complex. Like seriously:


Those songs are even significantly more complex than those Iron Maiden ones where they basically just keep playing the same thing over and over and usually use a verse-chorus-verse structure.

Don't see what Maiden has to do with this tangent. They have a lot of progressive elements and influence (Genesis is Steve Harris's favorite band), but they're not a prog band.

There's more to prog than complexity for complexity sake (generally, obviously it's a big umbrella that includes Rock In Opposition, Zeuhl, and the really avant garde stuff), but like why is it so confusing that prog fans wouldn't like anything or at least not very much descended from punk lineage (Cardiacs notwithstanding)? Even besides the very obvious fandom rivalry stuff with the likes of the Sex Pistols specifically calling out prog for ruining rock, like, ELP made a full like album adapting Mussorgsky's classical compositions with rock instruments and a ten-keyboard setup. Is it that hard to see how far away that is from hardcore?

Yes, because that Assistant song is almost like a classical composition as a hardcore song.

Also in regards to simplistic punk music: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=242324.0

OK, but they're different genres that appeal to completely different audiences with different sensibilities. What's so hard to grasp about that? Why are you trying to argue this? Do you seriously not see the irony between you saying "man, I just don't like metal because it's not hardcore and emo, also metalheads were dicks to us" on one hand and, on the other hand, saying "why don't prog fans like hardcore? It can't be because it's not prog! And why would they still care about punks being dicks to prog fans and musicians?"

Of course. I'm just pointing out it's kind of laughable to dump on it because the Sex Pistols were so simplistic or whatever.

Even a "moshcore" song like this is arguably far more complex than Iron Maiden:

Maiden isn't a prog band. Why do you keep bringing then up when you're talking about prog?

And it's not just the simplicity of the early punk bands, although yes, that was and is a part of it. Remember that these bands would hold up banners and wear t-shirts saying "Pink Floyd sucks", talking about how those Charterhouse boys were taking rock and roll away from the working man, and having the press side with punk at every turn over prog (while punk got got to keep calling itself anti-establishment). There has never in the history of popular music, to my knowledge, been an assault from one genre towards another quite like punk dealt towards prog in the 70s. And it was the musicians, not just the fans.

Also remember that, unlike metal, prog isn't very transgenrational. The average prog fan was is an over-55 British person who liked it in the 70s and likes it now; of course they're not going to listen to underground 90s scenes that descended from the descendents of their most hated genre.

Ultimately, though, these are very very different genres. Far more different than even metal and punk/hardcore are from each other. Of course nobody is taking listening to Thick As A Brick and [insert Knocked Loose album here] back to back.

Funny, my dad has prog records. He was playing a bunch one night and he put on a Rick Wakeman one...I just said it was really weird. (Also I kind of love the irony in that I'm the one my parents had to consult when they wanted to buy a new turntable to listen to all of their vinyl that was released before I was born, LOL.)

I was mostly just addressing your point about being hostile to punk due to subculture rivalries. BTW I never even knew of that "Pink Floyd sucks" thing. My experience begins about 20 years ago when metalheads were so hostile to the hardcore kids and things like Friends Stand United were despised by metalheads.

If you're trying to trudge up the "metal is right wing and full of toxic masculinity" trope punks say about metal, it's not true. Yes, there's lots of problematic aspects of metal and the genre's community that, especially as a queer leftist woman, I've seen firsthand, but there's a lot of that in punk to, and unlike you, I don't pretend my genre is a utopia. Punk isn't a utopia either. Dead Kennedys wouldn't have had to tell Nazi Punks to f off if they're weren't so many nazi punks.

Anyway, metal music has always been left wing. Sabbath's most popular album was Vietnam War protest album. 80s thrash was all about war and religion. Maiden too. Yeah, there's a lot meaningless "blah blah blah DEATH blah blah DRAGONS blah SATAN" too, but with the exception of black metal, whenever metal gets serious, which is often, it's left wing. And the masculinity of it, from the leather and denim to the subject matter, has always been on a spectrum between tongue-in-cheek and a cover for a something deeper, i.e., these macho manly men having feelings too. Take Fade to Black, which has already been mentioned, for instance; that's the most sensitive, authentic  song depicting suicidal thoughts I've ever heard. Or another Metallica song, Master of Puppets, about Hetfield's addictions, later elaborated on Load and St. Anger. Or Megadeth, problematic as Mustaine's lyrics can be sometimes, especially recently, the man pours it all on his sleeve. Or Black Sabbath's changes, then most emotional breakup song you'll ever hear.or literally anything Chuck Schuldiner ever wrote. These aren't obscure underground bands; these are the ambassadors, the inner circle Hall of Famers of heavy metal. The macho man stuff is a cover and always has been.

I prefer metal musicians to metal fans every day of the week. The chuddiness is higher concentrated in fans than in the bands. But I'm in it for the music, and I'll defend the music any day of the week.

Yeah I know of the Nazi punks but again that's an ancient scene. I've never heard of a Nazi melodic hardcore band or Nazi emo band.

And if that sort of stuff is so friendly then why do no metal bands or metal records have them?

Punk has a MUCH stronger history of having Nazi subculture, albeit a tiny minority, than metal.

But not melodic hardcore or emo.

But both genres have their direct roots in punk.

I'm not saying that melodic hardcore or emo have a Nazi subculture. I'm saying it's ridiculous and fundamentally incorrect  to label either as having a significant  presence based on such tenuous connections.

But black metal has a rather significant Nazi subculture that isn't a tiny minority or fringe. Like one of the most influential black metal musicians of all time is one.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

It's totally awesome when red's hipster Christianity and Mania for emo music collide and turn him into as bad a blue nose as any right wing socon,  and he doesn't even notice the incongruity

BRTD: Showing Atlas that "liberal" is not synonymous with "open minded" since 2003.

There's always been a huge divide on the left in terms of free speech and morality policing. Many liberals have always had a nanny-state tendency in them. Liberal attempts to censor Gone with the Wind in film schools and on television date back well over half a century if not longer, to cite one example. This kind of whiny, "think of the children!" art policing has been part of a certain segment of the left for way longer than the woke brigade of today or Tipper Gore of yesterday.

But that's definitely not me. I just don't like heavy metal music.

And I don't like emo music, but I'm not partisan enough to align myself with Jerry Falwell and start believing the stereotypes about the music promoting self harm, like you're doing with metal.

And I never said emo fans don't care about the music. I said you're a bad ambassador for your favorite genre who makes it sound like musical quality should be measured by moshpit activities that sound like rejected WWF finishing moves.

I have no beef with the emo genre. It's not my cup of tea, so I don't listen to it and I don't insult the musicians themselves. I have a beef with you being an obnoxious hack.

That's weird because you keep dumping on it and calling it the music of teenagers on MySpace and that it promotes suicide which is a RIDICULOUS accusation that real fans of it hate that stuff (funnily enough you have given a PERFECT analogy earlier in this thread by dumping on hair metal and saying it's not really metal and most metal fans hate it....I've even heard the hair metal analogy before applied to those bands from emo fans) and most of the genre's best work predates MySpace. Like where was MySpace in 1985?

 Is it worth pointing out here that you are taking extreme fringe and largely unpopular//nobody songs and groups to try to prove your point about azjandra that you are 99% ignorant of? I mean you've got more than a little bit of  Is a pot and kettle thing going here.

SUNNY DAY REAL ESTATE is an unpopular nobody band?!

Dude.

(Also "azjandra", lol, I have no clue what that is.)

 1st off, in the big picture kind of yes. Hate to break it to you, but they are kind of also rans compared  To bands that sell out arenas. I'm not gonna say that that's a major useful quality, but but they are definitely  Is the team in terms of overall popularity outside your rather narrow genre's.

Yeah I have to say you're right. This band definitely is a bunch of nobodies no one cares about: https://fb.watch/gdRDAV1ipf

(I'm actually in that crowd!)

[T'Chenka]

99% of people that listen to old problematic black metal bands don't support that band's politics. It's like you or I listen to a Kanye song from 2009 and then somebody thinking we support his statements on BLM and jewish people.

Black metal in general isn't very popular anyways.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

99% of people that listen to old problematic black metal bands don't support that band's politics. It's like you or I listen to a Kanye song from 2009 and then somebody thinking we support his statements on BLM and jewish people.

Black metal in general isn't very popular anyways.

Why on Earth would I ever listen to a Kanye song from any year?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I will repeat what I said at the beginning of this thread. The fact that you readily align yourself with folks like tipper Gore and Jerry falwell to try to "prove" The validity of your own narrow musical taste is telling, and frankly just reflective of self absorption of taste cr9ssing the l8ne into narrow mindedness.

First they came for heavy metal music, and I didn't speak up because I'm not a metalhead.
Then they came for the gangsta rap and I didn't speak up because I don't like any rap at all.
Then they came for the mall (not) "emo" and I didn't speak up because it was just stupid poser sh!t anyway.
Then they didn't come for real emo or melodic hardcore because it's really niche stuff that such people were never aware of and thus I never had to worry about my musical tastes coming under threat and I lived happily ever after.

[Lexii, harbinger of chaos and sexual anarchy]

I will repeat what I said at the beginning of this thread. The fact that you readily align yourself with folks like tipper Gore and Jerry falwell to try to "prove" The validity of your own narrow musical taste is telling, and frankly just reflective of self absorption of taste cr9ssing the l8ne into narrow mindedness.

First they came for heavy metal music, and I didn't speak up because I'm not a metalhead.
Then they came for the gangsta rap and I didn't speak up because I don't like any rap at all.
Then they came for the mall (not) "emo" and I didn't speak up because it was just stupid poser sh!t anyway.
Then they didn't come for real emo or melodic hardcore because it's really niche stuff that such people were never aware of and thus I never had to worry about my musical tastes coming under threat and I lived happily ever after.

...

[Badger]

I will repeat what I said at the beginning of this thread. The fact that you readily align yourself with folks like tipper Gore and Jerry falwell to try to "prove" The validity of your own narrow musical taste is telling, and frankly just reflective of self absorption of taste cr9ssing the l8ne into narrow mindedness.

First they came for heavy metal music, and I didn't speak up because I'm not a metalhead.
Then they came for the gangsta rap and I didn't speak up because I don't like any rap at all.
Then they came for the mall (not) "emo" and I didn't speak up because it was just stupid poser sh!t anyway.
Then they didn't come for real emo or melodic hardcore because it's really niche stuff that such people were never aware of and thus I never had to worry about my musical tastes coming under threat and I lived happily ever after.

...

Thank you (both) for proving my point.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I will repeat what I said at the beginning of this thread. The fact that you readily align yourself with folks like tipper Gore and Jerry falwell to try to "prove" The validity of your own narrow musical taste is telling, and frankly just reflective of self absorption of taste cr9ssing the l8ne into narrow mindedness.

First they came for heavy metal music, and I didn't speak up because I'm not a metalhead.
Then they came for the gangsta rap and I didn't speak up because I don't like any rap at all.
Then they came for the mall (not) "emo" and I didn't speak up because it was just stupid poser sh!t anyway.
Then they didn't come for real emo or melodic hardcore because it's really niche stuff that such people were never aware of and thus I never had to worry about my musical tastes coming under threat and I lived happily ever after.

...

I thought it was pretty self-explanatory.