What undermimes marriage more?

[afleitch]

Methinks Bush is targeting the wrong people...

EDIT: I for one support civil unions first, then marriage as a possibility a generation down the line. I am just sick of gays and lesbians being made a scapegoat for a weakened President and peoples crappy marriage prospects.

[afleitch]

StatesRights stated that marriage was created for the purposes of procreation, so it would therefore naturally follow that infertile couples (who cannot procreate) should not be permitted to marry.

Likewise it would also exclude marriage to a woman who is post-menopausal or a couple where one has, or contracts an infectious disease like HIV and the risks involved in procreative sex is simply not an option, out of love for each other.

Yet it would mean thatn shot gun marriages, marriages for money, marriages to secure residency in certain nations, marriages between 20 something blondes and 90 year old millionaries, marriages that break up after a few months and end up in divorce, remarriage, remarriage for the 3rd 5th and 5th time, forced marriage, arranged marriage and marriages of convenience are all more valid than the marriage of two men or two women out of love for one another.

Secondly most of the NT stuff about 'homosexuality' isn't actually about it at all, its about male prostitution and the (possibly deliberate) mistranslation from the ancient greek of the word 'arsenokoiten'; and when you look at Paul 1:25, that directly precedes the infamous Paul 1: 26-27 you can see that quite clearly, when he condemns idolatrous worship and so in 26-27 is actually attacking temple prostitutes, but I've already explained all that in an older thread.

[afleitch]

High divorce rates, marriages of convenience and Vegas style quickie marriages are the problem not gay marriage.

I wonder how many of the pastors who bellow from the pulpits about the issue have been divorced/had affairs and so on

[afleitch]

If an infertile man or women gets married, it is a sin!

Or an elderly couple who choose to marry

[afleitch]

Inks, you are young, you are still impressionable First of all, I'm not a liberal- i'm an active member of the British Conservative Party. It's not just liberals that support gay marriage or civil unions.

Secondly infertility is not a 'disease.' It's more of a condition. It can be caused by disease yes, but it can also occur through other methods (like the menopause for example)

[afleitch]

Those who think marriage is only for 'making babies' actually undermime it more than anyone else- neglecting love and devotion. Sex is for having kids, marriage is a bond between two people who love each other unconditionally.

[afleitch]

No--the criteria is if there are no MEDICAL abnormalities, it's OK.  In fertility it is a condition in the sexual organs that causes it.  You're brain/heart doesn't say, "I can't have kids."  There IS a difference.

Infertility can also be the result of long term physchological factors. Its not always physical.

[afleitch]

No--the criteria is if there are no MEDICAL abnormalities, it's OK.  In fertility it is a condition in the sexual organs that causes it.  You're brain/heart doesn't say, "I can't have kids."  There IS a difference.

Infertility can also be the result of long term physchological factors. Its not always physical.

Did you mean psychological (not being sarcastic)?

Yes, it was a mispelling, but psychological factors such as stress and grief brought about by loss can affect fertility.

[afleitch]

It's not just liberals that support gay marriage or civil unions.

To be fair, it's liberals and gays.

Sure it is Jake...sure it is. It is far wider political circle than that. Liberatarians spring to mind for example.

[afleitch]

How.  Explain to me how stress effects fertility.

Impotence is the well known one.

Read about other ways here:

Reuters

Shortened the URL to avoid horizontal scrollbar.

[afleitch]

Have you ever seen any other homosexual thing other than a human?

Take a look at the animal kingdom - it's all around you. Male American bison have been known to penetrate each other for example.

[afleitch]

I would say that any Christian who is gay has some serious problems.  

I am. And I get along just fine thanks

[afleitch]

How.  Explain to me how stress effects fertility.

Impotence is the well known one.

Read about other ways here:

Reuters

Shortened the URL to avoid horizontal scrollbar.

Right--I know this--I just want you to explain it, so that when I counter it, you can't say that that's not what you meant.

?? How the hell can you counter well documented and observed homosexual behaviour in the animal kingdom?

[afleitch]

Gays know (or at least should--deep down in their heart after learning biology) that what they believe is wrong.

Not really. If you actually lean biology you tend to realise that homosexuality is pretty common across the board from hedgehogs to humans.

[afleitch]

As the result of psychological problems- not 'disease' as you were originally arguing.

[afleitch]

I would say that any Christian who is gay has some serious problems.  

I am. And I get along just fine thanks

Then I would say you have some serious docrtrinal issues.

Hmm? Why would you say that? It's not certain that homosexuality (as a sexual orientation and all that) is even mentioned in the New Testament (the bit in Romans may have been in reference to male prostitution).

Indeed. It all hinges on the translation and context of the Greek word arsenokoites/en which when you look at the context of where it is used (in lists of economic sins and those relating to money and trade) it refers to male/gay prostitution both as a trade and as a part of idolatrous temple worship.

[afleitch]

Sodom & Gomorah

Thats the Old Testament. The 'teachings of Jesus Christ' were found in the New Testament.

[afleitch]

So then, if an unborn baby can psychologically "become" (i know it's the wrong word) gay, if it's that advanced, why can we still abort it?  IF it can "choose" it's sexual orientation--which will determine what happens the rest of it's life, shouldn't it be considered living?

Di you choose your eye colour? Did you choose your gender while you were in the womb?

[afleitch]

Sodom & Gomorah

Thats the Old Testament. The 'teachings of Jesus Christ' were found in the New Testament.

I know--I take Bible class.

But you used it to rebut Als discussion of what the NT contains and what Christ said or did not say. Therfore Sodom and Gomorra, being part of the OT is not a valid rebuttal

[afleitch]

Ink, your getting lost as to where you are trying to go. Slow down a little.

[afleitch]

That makes no sense.

EDIT: Jinx

[afleitch]

For this cause God gave them up into vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet" (Romans 1:26, 27).

Did you look at Romans 1:25 just right before that?

'For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature and not the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen'

He was talking about prostitution during idolatrous worship

[afleitch]

If Joe abortion Dr. says unborn Sammy can be killed b/c he's not a life, but he can "decide" (i KNOW its the wrong word) that he's gay--there's a contradiction there.

But Dr Joe can't actually tell if the baby in the womb will be gay or straight- he could take a guess, based on research and throw up a probability. Just the same way he can take a guess at whats it eye colour might be, or if it has his mothers or fathers nose. He may be spot on, he may be way off. You don't know until it is born.

[afleitch]

Sodom & Gomorah

Which is in the Old Testament, not the New. But I'll run with this anyway...

It seems to me that the sins of the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah were the fact that they tended to rape newcomers to their cities, rather than homosexuality...

That's how I interpret it. Again the key word is disputed, the Hebrew- 'yada' - which means to know, to have knowledge of. It doesn't really have much sexual connotation to it.

[afleitch]

or homosexual practices during idol worship--but drop it--we won't agree on the greek translation.

Do you actually know anything about the greek translation? (that isn't creamed from google) And yes homosexual practices were condemned during idol worship...as were heterosexual practices elswhere in the NT. It doesn't mean he sees them as wrong, but only wrong in context- ie idol worship and prostitution. Not long term, stable gay relationships.