Let the trade wars begin

[phk]

Chinese are reciprocating by considering a ban on imports of American Chicken.

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[Associate Justice PiT]

     Boo! No tariffs or restrictions on any goods!

[War on Want]

Tariffs are stupid.

[k-onmmunist]

Protectionism is the worst economic ideology of all.. even worse than socialism.

[Mechaman]

Protectionism is the worst economic ideology of all

Definitely agree.

[MK]

Protectionism is the worst economic ideology of all

Definitely agree.

Yeah, but trading away just about all manufacturing jobs is just as bad.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Protectionism is the worst economic ideology of all

Definitely agree.

Yeah, but trading away just about all manufacturing jobs is just as bad.

     Because manufacturing jobs are so great that we should put the brakes on trade so that we can keep them?

[pogo stick]

Protectionism is the worst economic ideology of all.. even worse than socialism.

Not as bad as socialism, but agreed

[MK]

Protectionism is the worst economic ideology of all

Definitely agree.

Yeah, but trading away just about all manufacturing jobs is just as bad.

     Because manufacturing jobs are so great that we should put the brakes on trade so that we can keep them?

NObody is saying stop all free trade, but the loss/ bleeding of our  manufacturing jobs is killing our country.  

There should be more pressure from our leaders to keep these jobs here.  Its shames me that the intellectual elites don't care nothing about the poor or middle class and only wont  this to be a rich or poor country.

[Sbane]

Ugh. Dumb move.

[Torie]

Ugh. Dumb move.

Most of this protectionist talk for nations that really rely on trade, is chatter for public consumption and never really happens. Protectionism is dead except for some nations that really are not in the international market economy. Market forces are indeed so strong that ideology here does not matter much. Go protectionist and the economic whipping you get will make your butt so sore, that you won't be able to sit on a hard surface for a month.

[MK]

Ugh. Dumb move.

Most of this protectionist talk for nations that really rely on trade, is chatter for public consumption and never really happens. Protectionism is dead except for some nations that really are not in the international market economy. Market forces are indeed so strong that ideology here does not matter much. Go protectionist and the economic whipping you get will make your butt so sore, that you won't be able to sit on a hard surface for a month.

This is all good in explaining why full on protectionism is bad.   But you guys are not understanding that one of the main reasons why nobody has answer to our current economic problems - is because of this ideal being spewed by ones like yourself that we don't need these lowly manufacturing jobs anymore.  This gives the "greedy bastards" a green light to screw us over.  

Whats wrong with our country today?    Well, everytime I go to the damn hardware store and I have to buy a hammer,  power tool, or pipe fitting that says "Made in China".. that's whats wrong.

[Mechaman]

Ugh. Dumb move.

Most of this protectionist talk for nations that really rely on trade, is chatter for public consumption and never really happens. Protectionism is dead except for some nations that really are not in the international market economy. Market forces are indeed so strong that ideology here does not matter much. Go protectionist and the economic whipping you get will make your butt so sore, that you won't be able to sit on a hard surface for a month.

This is all good in explaining why full on protectionism is bad.   But you guys are not understanding that one of the main reasons why nobody has answer to our current economic problems - is because of this ideal being spewed by ones like yourself that we don't need these lowly manufacturing jobs anymore.  This gives the "greedy bastards" a green light to screw us over.   

Whats wrong with our country today?    Well everytime i go to the damn hardware store and i have to buy a hammer,  power tool, or pipe fitting that says "Made in China".. that's whats wrong.

Uhhhh, economic racism. How Kosher is that?

[Torie]

Ugh. Dumb move.

Most of this protectionist talk for nations that really rely on trade, is chatter for public consumption and never really happens. Protectionism is dead except for some nations that really are not in the international market economy. Market forces are indeed so strong that ideology here does not matter much. Go protectionist and the economic whipping you get will make your butt so sore, that you won't be able to sit on a hard surface for a month.

This is all good in explaining why full on protectionism is bad.   But you guys are not understanding that one of the main reasons why nobody has answer to our current economic problems - is because of this ideal being spewed by ones like yourself that we don't need these lowly manufacturing jobs anymore.  This gives the "greedy bastards" a green light to screw us over.  

Whats wrong with our country today?    Well, everytime I go to the damn hardware store and I have to buy a hammer,  power tool, or pipe fitting that says "Made in China".. that's whats wrong.

No legal magic wand will make it better Keller. And using protectionism to "save" manufacturing jobs isn't going to happen either. The major players know that a trade war would be catastrophic for everyone. Get used to it. Enjoy the protectionist chatter, because that is all you are going to get, unless we elect nutters for both POTUS and a majority of Congress, and even if we did that, that results would be so ugly, that after 2 to 4 years, the whole gang would be voted out of office.

We have this nostalgia that when the US was not very reliant on trade, and controlled more than half the planet's economy in the 1950's, and was competitive in mass production manufacture, and the man in the gray flannel suit had a job for life with one large corporation, with with mass production technology (rather than custom manufactured stuff like we have more of now), had certain barriers to entry due to such mass production economies of scale now largely gone, particularly with more efficient global financial markets, and so forth. There is thus "golden age" perception that the the Eisenhower era of high marginal tax rates, and all these "high paid" working class jobs, was just  this perfect time that political policies can recreate, or recreate light. They can't and won't and actually the standard of living then even for the working stiffs was considerably less than it is now, particularly considering all the amenities we  currently enjoy, and most folks have, like cell phones, that did not exist then.

As an "old," I am continually amazed at what I can accomplish now, that I could not accomplish 10 years ago (at least with any remote degree of efficiency), much less as when I was a "young."

I love the new age!

[Gustaf]

Protectionism is the worst economic ideology of all

Definitely agree.

Yeah, but trading away just about all manufacturing jobs is just as bad.

     Because manufacturing jobs are so great that we should put the brakes on trade so that we can keep them?

NObody is saying stop all free trade, but the loss/ bleeding of our  manufacturing jobs is killing our country.  

There should be more pressure from our leaders to keep these jobs here.  Its shames me that the intellectual elites don't care nothing about the poor or middle class and only wont  this to be a rich or poor country.

What's the alternative to being a rich or a poor country?

[Associate Justice PiT]

Protectionism is the worst economic ideology of all

Definitely agree.

Yeah, but trading away just about all manufacturing jobs is just as bad.

     Because manufacturing jobs are so great that we should put the brakes on trade so that we can keep them?

NObody is saying stop all free trade, but the loss/ bleeding of our  manufacturing jobs is killing our country.  

There should be more pressure from our leaders to keep these jobs here.  Its shames me that the intellectual elites don't care nothing about the poor or middle class and only wont  this to be a rich or poor country.

What's the alternative to being a rich or a poor country?

     I think Keller was trying to suggest that that would lead to the destruction of the middle class, such that there would only be rich people & poor people.

[opebo]

We have this nostalgia ... with with mass production technology (rather than custom manufactured stuff like we have more of now),

We don't have much 'custom' manufactured stuff at all, Torie.  All that innovation talk is just business school mumbo jumbo.  We still make just a few big things for consumption - cars, houses, food/clothes, and services relating to conflict, illness, and death.  What has happened is not that manufacturing has changed, just that it has been moved to slave states.   This is a very good move for owners but makes most people miserable and has the side effect of creating a dearth of demand which destroys the economic system.

There ..."golden age" ... the standard of living then even for the working stiffs was considerably less than it is now, particularly considering all the amenities we  currently enjoy, and most folks have, like cell phones, that did not exist then.

Totally wrongheaded right-wing talking point there Torie, I'm afraid.  A microwave and a mobile phone does not make up for security and lifetime wellbeing.  Life is still about social position, security, being able to afford a house and car, education and rearing for 2-3 kids, health care, and a pension/retirement.  All of those things are less available now to working class people than they were in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

Yes, in return for their economic disenfranchisement they get a stupid computer machine.  This is nothing, and in any case would have occurred even without the political changes that destroyed the working class.

I love the new age!

Of course you do, you're a privileged.

[MK]

Protectionism is the worst economic ideology of all

Definitely agree.

Yeah, but trading away just about all manufacturing jobs is just as bad.

     Because manufacturing jobs are so great that we should put the brakes on trade so that we can keep them?

Nobody is saying stop all free trade, but the loss/ bleeding of our  manufacturing jobs is killing our country.  

There should be more pressure from our leaders to keep these jobs here.  Its shames me that the intellectual elites don't care nothing about the poor or middle class and only wont  this to be a rich or poor country.

What's the alternative to being a rich or a poor country?

     I think Keller was trying to suggest that that would lead to the destruction of the middle class, such that there would only be rich people & poor people.

Correct.

Which would not be  country that you nor I would want to live in.  Kind of scary to think about.

Everybody benefits the most when the middle class is strong and the poor are not highly unemployed.  I think we can all agree on this?

[MK]

We have this nostalgia ... with with mass production technology (rather than custom manufactured stuff like we have more of now),

We don't have much 'custom' manufactured stuff at all, Torie.  All that innovation talk is just business school mumbo jumbo.  We still make just a few big things for consumption - cars, houses, food/clothes, and services relating to conflict, illness, and death.  What has happened is not that manufacturing has changed, just that it has been moved to slave states.   This is a very good move for owners but makes most people miserable and has the side effect of creating a dearth of demand which destroys the economic system.

There ..."golden age" ... the standard of living then even for the working stiffs was considerably less than it is now, particularly considering all the amenities we  currently enjoy, and most folks have, like cell phones, that did not exist then.

Totally wrongheaded right-wing talking point there Torie, I'm afraid.  A microwave and a mobile phone does not make up for security and lifetime wellbeing.  Life is still about social position, security, being able to afford a house and car, education and rearing for 2-3 kids, health care, and a pension/retirement.  All of those things are less available now to working class people than they were in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

Yes, in return for their economic disenfranchisement they get a stupid computer machine.  This is nothing, and in any case would have occurred even without the political changes that destroyed the working class.

I love the new age!

Of course you do, you're a privileged.

Opebo =  One of the greatest economic minds this forum has.. maybe even this country.

[??????????]

We have this nostalgia ... with with mass production technology (rather than custom manufactured stuff like we have more of now),

We don't have much 'custom' manufactured stuff at all, Torie.  All that innovation talk is just business school mumbo jumbo.  We still make just a few big things for consumption - cars, houses, food/clothes, and services relating to conflict, illness, and death.  What has happened is not that manufacturing has changed, just that it has been moved to slave states.   This is a very good move for owners but makes most people miserable and has the side effect of creating a dearth of demand which destroys the economic system.

There ..."golden age" ... the standard of living then even for the working stiffs was considerably less than it is now, particularly considering all the amenities we  currently enjoy, and most folks have, like cell phones, that did not exist then.

Totally wrongheaded right-wing talking point there Torie, I'm afraid.  A microwave and a mobile phone does not make up for security and lifetime wellbeing.  Life is still about social position, security, being able to afford a house and car, education and rearing for 2-3 kids, health care, and a pension/retirement.  All of those things are less available now to working class people than they were in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

Yes, in return for their economic disenfranchisement they get a stupid computer machine.  This is nothing, and in any case would have occurred even without the political changes that destroyed the working class.

I love the new age!

Of course you do, you're a privileged.

Opebo =  One of the greatest economic minds this forum has.. maybe even this country.

Obviously you are for the legalization of crack.

[Torie]

Opebo, manufacture is far more customized than it once was. Most of the steel mills in the US survive with custom order stuff, not making mass production ingots. In Japan, high quality, high design textiles are made in custom runs using complex computer programs.  The half life of products before they become obsolescent is far shorter now than it was back in the 1950's.

And grinding poverty in the US was far more rampant and severe in the 1950's than now, with about a third of the population in the South living at or barely above subsistence level. That is no longer the case. Heck I remember driving through the delta country of Arkansas back around 1970 when I was in college, and the cotton fields were filled with blacks hand picking the stuff just like in the days of slavery. They are not there anymore - and that is progress.

So in this case, I just don't agree with you as to the actual facts. I suppose one could seek sources to "prove" that to be the case, but hey, take my word for it dude. My word is good!

[opebo]

Most of the steel mills in the US survive with custom order stuff, not making mass production ingots.

Bad example, as the US steel industry is a tiny shadow of its former self, and most world steel production still takes place in the same way it did in the US in 1950s - mass scale - just in China, India, etc.

In Japan, high quality, high design textiles are made in custom runs using complex computer programs.

Also a poor example, as the Japanese textile industry is also a shadow of it former self, and nearly all world textile manufacture is done in the same old mass-market cheap-ass way, its just moved to Bangladesh and Cambodia.  Duh. 

And grinding poverty in the US was far more rampant and severe in the 1950's than now, with about a third of the population in the South living at or barely above subsistence level. That is no longer the case. Heck I remember driving through the delta country of Arkansas back around 1970 when I was in college, and the cotton fields were filled with blacks hand picking the stuff just like in the days of slavery. They are not there anymore - and that is progress.

I don't know about this, Torie.  From what I read about health levels and so forth it sounds like  there is still about 1/3 of the south that is falling through the cracks.  I don't know if poverty may look slightly different, but I know that a huge percentage of americans in every state experience a state of incredible insecurity and desperation every day of their lives.  We should go on a road trip to look for poverty in the US as you did in the 70s.. I'll bet we find just as much, but maybe they're just unemployed now rather than picking cotton.

[Torie]

Ya opebo, but sometimes it is better that such low value added jobs be done elsewhere. It saddens me that we still have low value added textile sweat shops in Los Angeles, thanks to illegal immigration. The trick for a prosperous society is to focus on high value added jobs, and have an educational system that works well enough to staff them. On the latter front, the US is in serious trouble, but that is another topic.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Most of the steel mills in the US survive with custom order stuff, not making mass production ingots.

Bad example, as the US steel industry is a tiny shadow of its former self, and most world steel production still takes place in the same way it did in the US in 1950s - mass scale - just in China, India, etc.

In Japan, high quality, high design textiles are made in custom runs using complex computer programs.

Also a poor example, as the Japanese textile industry is also a shadow of it former self, and nearly all world textile manufacture is done in the same old mass-market cheap-ass way, its just moved to Bangladesh and Cambodia.  Duh. 

And grinding poverty in the US was far more rampant and severe in the 1950's than now, with about a third of the population in the South living at or barely above subsistence level. That is no longer the case. Heck I remember driving through the delta country of Arkansas back around 1970 when I was in college, and the cotton fields were filled with blacks hand picking the stuff just like in the days of slavery. They are not there anymore - and that is progress.

I don't know about this, Torie.  From what I read about health levels and so forth it sounds like  there is still about 1/3 of the south that is falling through the cracks.  I don't know if poverty may look slightly different, but I know that a huge percentage of americans in every state experience a state of incredible insecurity and desperation every day of their lives.  We should go on a road trip to look for poverty in the US as you did in the 70s.. I'll bet we find just as much, but maybe they're just unemployed now rather than picking cotton.

Having been to Duluth and the Iron Range many times, I can tell you the steel industry is a shadow of its former self.  Luckily the good people in these places still care enough to vote for those that would represent their interests rather than those that would play into their fears and then sell them down the river to big business interests.

[MK]

Ya opebo, but sometimes it is better that such low value added jobs be done elsewhere. It saddens me that we still have low value added textile sweat shops in Los Angeles, thanks to illegal immigration. The trick for a prosperous society is to focus on high value added jobs, and have an educational system that works well enough to staff them. On the latter front, the US is in serious trouble, but that is another topic.

Wishful thinking.