Sarkozy = Idiot

[Franzl]

As much as fundamentalist Islam turns my stomach I will never understand people who would ban freedom of expression.

Do you mean the American version of freedom of expression ? You have the right to say "homosexuality is an abomination" "we should kil doctors who practiced abortion", you have the right to be a neo-nazi and diffuse hatred against other races,

That's right, freedom of speech is absolute. No matter how disgusting or revolting it may be hate speech = free speech. Freedom of speech is a natural right granted to us by our Creator. France can do whatever the hell it wants to do, I don't want to force our rights on anyone else but obviously I would be happy if they would choose my line of thought on the matter.

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Hyperbole much?

^^^^

Freedom of speech must be absolute. I don't care who it offends, they're free to speak out against their attacker as well.

[Keystone Phil]

I don't think those who have surrendered on so many issues regarding Muslims, would have much authority if they suddenly turned around out and opposed Sharia law and the like. After all, the same arguments can be used in this case, as in earlier cases: "It's just part of their religion and tradition!", "As hosts we must make immigrants feel welcome!" and so on.
And while all this is going on, all the negative drawbacks of burqas also go on: the isolation and alienation of Muslims, the security risks,  the forced wearing of burqas under pressure of their relatives, wider community and recently, Islamist groups.
I see that you believe strongly in the high minded position of absolute freedom, but absolute freedom is useless and even dangerous against those who have no respects for freedom and only wish to destory it.

It's not "absolute freedom" to allow women to wear something many actually want to wear. I know it's hard for you to understand that. It's sometimes hard for me to understand it, too, since I think many male Muslims do want it kept as a sign of inferiority but there is a tradition behind it that isn't "anti woman."

Whatever the case, it's not your business. Muslims aren't forcing anything on us with headscarves/burqas. When they start forcing it on us, you'll see me stand up and blast them just as much as I'm blasting Sarkozy.

And allowing Muslims to carry out their own traditions when Muslim women want it as well is not just like changing parts of my society to satisfy immigrants. Making Spanish an official language of the U.S., for example, is nothing like allowing Muslims to take part in their own traditions.

[afleitch]

I've had a passing discussion with two Muslims at work about this. Both of them support the ban.

[??????????]

I've had a passing discussion with two Muslims at work about this. Both of them support the ban.

Are they very secular, nominal, average or devout?

[Keystone Phil]

I've had a passing discussion with two Muslims at work about this. Both of them support the ban.

Were they women who actually want to wear a burqa?

[afleitch]

I've had a passing discussion with two Muslims at work about this. Both of them support the ban.

Are they very secular, nominal, average or devout?

One was 'average', the other is devout - she wears the Salwar kameez.

I've had a passing discussion with two Muslims at work about this. Both of them support the ban.

Were they women who actually want to wear a burqa?

No. One of them considers it both degrading and unislamic.

[??????????]

What's Iggs stance on this? Sorry wrong thread.

[Keystone Phil]

No. One of them considers it both degrading and unislamic.

Ok, good for them but I'm a little more concerned with the women that want to wear them and I don't like the government telling them they can't wear it.

[afleitch]

No. One of them considers it both degrading and unislamic.

Ok, good for them but I'm a little more concerned with the women that want to wear them and I don't like the government telling them they can't wear it.

'Good for them'? 'Good for them!'

It matters not a jot to you or I or any non-Muslim (or male) what some Muslim women are pressured to wear. When the people it actually concerns speak out against it and the damage it does to their community then you know 'good for them, but..'

You are aware that Sarkozy called for a 'restriction of their use' through the co-operation of womens groups and Muslim groups and will be setting up a cross party commission of lawmakers to look at the issue?

[Keystone Phil]

It matters not a jot to you or I or any non-Muslim (or male) what some Muslim women are pressured to wear. When the people it actually concerns speak out against it and the damage it does to their community then you know 'good for them, but..'

It does matter to me if women are pressured to wear it but you and others keep ignoring the fact that there are plenty of Muslim women that want to wear it. What do we say to them?

Also, I'd like this answered as well: what are we to do with the mosques? What's stopping the government from going in there and forcing Muslim men and women to pray in the same area?

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I don't want a "restriction of their use." The guy came out and said they would not be welcome in "his France" or some nonsense like that.

[afleitch]

It matters not a jot to you or I or any non-Muslim (or male) what some Muslim women are pressured to wear. When the people it actually concerns speak out against it and the damage it does to their community then you know 'good for them, but..'

It does matter to me if women are pressured to wear it but you and others keep ignoring the fact that there are plenty of Muslim women that want to wear it. What do we say to them?

We ask them why. Why do they wish to wear a regional dress (the Afghan Burqua) that goes OTT on what 'modest' dress is supposed to be in Islam and why they feel they have to wear it. Which is exactly what the commission intends to do with the help of the Muslim community the majority of whom also want to see an end to a dress that is not just alien to France, but alien to the French Arab/African Muslim community too.

[Keystone Phil]

It matters not a jot to you or I or any non-Muslim (or male) what some Muslim women are pressured to wear. When the people it actually concerns speak out against it and the damage it does to their community then you know 'good for them, but..'

It does matter to me if women are pressured to wear it but you and others keep ignoring the fact that there are plenty of Muslim women that want to wear it. What do we say to them?

We ask them why. Why do they wish to wear a regional dress (the Afghan Burqua) that goes OTT on what 'modest' dress is supposed to be in Islam and why they feel they have to wear it. Which is exactly what the commission intends to do with the help of the Muslim community the majority of whom also want to see an end to a dress that is not just alien to France, but alien to the French Arab/African Muslim community too.

Why do they have to answer to a commission about what the hell they want to wear?

You know, preaching about "alien fashion" by an American to, say, a European in traditional folk dress (which tends to be very conservative) would be deemed very offensive and forcing them to wear American clothing would be fascist.

I just don't like the government requiring citizens to explain why they want to wear something that has no affect on the society whatsoever.

[GMantis]

It matters not a jot to you or I or any non-Muslim (or male) what some Muslim women are pressured to wear. When the people it actually concerns speak out against it and the damage it does to their community then you know 'good for them, but..'

It does matter to me if women are pressured to wear it but you and others keep ignoring the fact that there are plenty of Muslim women that want to wear it. What do we say to them?

We ask them why. Why do they wish to wear a regional dress (the Afghan Burqua) that goes OTT on what 'modest' dress is supposed to be in Islam and why they feel they have to wear it. Which is exactly what the commission intends to do with the help of the Muslim community the majority of whom also want to see an end to a dress that is not just alien to France, but alien to the French Arab/African Muslim community too.

Why do they have to answer to a commission about what the hell they want to wear?

You know, preaching about "alien fashion" by an American to, say, a European in traditional folk dress (which tends to be very conservative) would be deemed very offensive and forcing them to wear American clothing would be fascist.

I just don't like the government requiring citizens to explain why they want to wear something that has no affect on the society whatsoever.

I've given quite a few reasons why burqas are dangerous to society, would you mind actually addressing some of these points, instead of taking a false position of highmindness?
It wouldn't hurt to tell what should be done about those women who are forced in various ways to wear burqas.

[Keystone Phil]

I've given quite a few reasons why burqas are dangerous to society, would you mind actually addressing some of these points, instead of taking a false position of highmindness?

I don't think there's anything dangerous about a burqa aside from possibly concealing weapons. Your examples are just paranoia about Muslims forcing their traditions on others.

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What can we do? Believe me, I'd love to act on that. I don't want anyone forced to wear something they don't want to wear. I just don't think banning them all is the right idea.

[Хahar 🤔]

If you don't ban burqas, they will be imposed on Islamic women by their relatives and by community pressure. This greatly exacerbate the alienation and isolation of Muslims from the native population, contributing to the lack of integration and ethnic tensions. Muslims men often act abusive against non-muslim women because they're not covered. Would this happen to such extent if headscarves were banned.

Again, what about women who really want to wear burqas?

With the typical structure of the Islamic family and with the isolation and strong group pressure in their communities, it's virtually impossible to tell them apart from those who have burqas forced upon them. So it's better to be on the safe side.

I think I have a vague idea of where you're coming from, but understand that you're in Bulgaria.

I don't understand you. What do you mean by that?

Turkey is more...threatening isn't quite the right word. Turks vote in a bloc for the Turkish party. It's not like that in most places.

[Хahar 🤔]

Sarkozy = Idiot

In general, I strongly agree with your statement. But among every measures of Sarkozy administration, this is probably one of the best. Burqa is an oppression factor that has nothing to do in a democratic and free country. We must fight muslim fundamentalism and his reactionary practices.

What?

If a woman wants to wear one, why can't she?

[Хahar 🤔]

Why does "secular" mean "areligious"? This isn't Turkey. Separation of church and state works both ways.

[GMantis]

I've given quite a few reasons why burqas are dangerous to society, would you mind actually addressing some of these points, instead of taking a false position of highmindness?

I don't think there's anything dangerous about a burqa aside from possibly concealing weapons. Your examples are just paranoia about Muslims forcing their traditions on others.

So it appears that you oppose integration of Muslims, as almost nothing says "Fuсk integration!" more than completely concealing women under a moveable tent.
And it's not paranoia. Did you actually read that article about the Austrian school?

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What can we do? Believe me, I'd love to act on that. I don't want anyone forced to wear something they don't want to wear. I just don't think banning them all is the right idea.

In fact, Sarkozy doesn't want them banned (I do, but the thread isn't about me). He just wants a frank discussion about their role in society - something you also oppose.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

In Minneapolis Muslim cabbies used to refuse to carry passengers from the airport with alcohol in their luggage until the Metropolitan Airport Commission unanimously voted to prohibit that and essentially ban anyone who would refuse from any airport service. Some local Muslim leaders have also asked liquor stores not to sell to Muslims, and the city to not allow liquor stores in heavily Muslim areas. That's not assimilation. That needs to be required. Banning this is a good step. Also saying that they have no right to impose their morals on anyone here is another, which is what Minneapolis is doing.

[Hash]

France is a secular state and must remain so.

Secular in private life or government?

Government. But we must fight Muslim fundamentalism and oppression.

This is banning the burqas, not the headscarf only. I've little problems with headscarves, but a full black burqa has no place in France. France isn't Riyadh, for god's sake.

Wow. Just...wow.

Again, ignoring the will of women that actually want to wear it because France "isn't Riyadh."

This is the same genius that rails against xenophobic, nationalist fascists, right?  Where do we draw the line? Does Sarkozy now want to regulate what happens in mosques as well? Is he going to force mosques to allow women and men to pray together? I mean, why shouldn't he? This "isn't Riyadh," right?

I know I'm defending a position that's hated by a majority of the forum, but I'll stick to it.

France should ban conspicuous religious symbols in public places. I don't care what happens in mosques or in homes, it's their business. And I assume Sarkozy recognizes that too. Once again, I repeat that the law which I support is a restriction of the usage of burqas. Not a law which bans all headscarves, voila. There is a distinction between burqa and headscarf. They're not the same.

Again, the burqa creates a social rift in France and other places between Muslims and non-Muslims. Racism, or quasi-racism, against Muslims in prevalent in the 93 or Paris, and wearing a burqa doesn't help the situation. Efforts should be made to mend this social rift by taking steps to assimilate them into society, not in a nationalist way, but also to prevent racism from occuring. Religion is private.

I support a law in this mold and I support the general intent, but I'll wait until I read the actual text to support the thing specifically or not.

I don't see how this is at all xenophobic or fascist. Even the staunchest opponents of this in France haven't used those words, and believe me, they like to use them a lot. I haven't seen the opponents of this law in this very thread blast it calling it those names.

[GMantis]

If you don't ban burqas, they will be imposed on Islamic women by their relatives and by community pressure. This greatly exacerbate the alienation and isolation of Muslims from the native population, contributing to the lack of integration and ethnic tensions. Muslims men often act abusive against non-muslim women because they're not covered. Would this happen to such extent if headscarves were banned.

Again, what about women who really want to wear burqas?

With the typical structure of the Islamic family and with the isolation and strong group pressure in their communities, it's virtually impossible to tell them apart from those who have burqas forced upon them. So it's better to be on the safe side.

I think I have a vague idea of where you're coming from, but understand that you're in Bulgaria.

I don't understand you. What do you mean by that?

Turkey is more...threatening isn't quite the right word. Turks vote in a bloc for the Turkish party. It's not like that in most places.

Threatening is quite the right word, considering that Turkey supports this party in all possible ways and Turkish politicians occasionally speak about "lost territories".
But this is not really a religious question, as the Bulgarian Turks are generally better integrated and less religious than those in Western Europe. It's more of an ethnic question.
The situation in the West, where religion is the important element of identification for most Muslims, is quite different. The encouragement of fundamentalist Islam does nothing for the integration of Muslims or their relations with the host countries.

[Keystone Phil]

So it appears that you oppose integration of Muslims, as almost nothing says "Fuсk integration!" more than completely concealing women under a moveable tent.
And it's not paranoia. Did you actually read that article about the Austrian school?

I don't oppose integrating people by taking away clothing that they choose to wear.

It's paranoia when you say that keeping burqas will lead to a push to Sharia Law. If anything, Sarkozy's move will only make them desire it even more!

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I don't think a "frank discussion" is needed to justify their role. They don't need to answer to the government for what they want to wear.

But he doesn't just want a "frank discussion." He said they are not welcome in France so spare me the nonsense.

I don't see how this is at all xenophobic or fascist. Even the staunchest opponents of this in France haven't used those words, and believe me, they like to use them a lot. I haven't seen the opponents of this law in this very thread blast it calling it those names.

Well, it's probably not seen as "fascists" in France since the fascists are probably enjoying seeing the Muslims lose something they want.

[Hash]

I don't see how this is at all xenophobic or fascist. Even the staunchest opponents of this in France haven't used those words, and believe me, they like to use them a lot. I haven't seen the opponents of this law in this very thread blast it calling it those names.

Well, it's probably not seen as "fascists" in France since the fascists are probably enjoying seeing the Muslims lose something they want.

The word fascist is thrown around in a pejorative sense by numerous people in France.

I don't like the idea that Muslim women want the burqa. How do you know that?

[Keystone Phil]

I don't like the idea that Muslim women want the burqa. How do you know that?

How do I know what? That women want to wear it or that you don't want them to wear it?

I know that there actually are women that want to wear it from numerous documentaries and from one on one conversations with Muslim individuals.

[GMantis]

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I don't think a "frank discussion" is needed to justify their role. They don't need to answer to the government for what they want to wear.

But he doesn't just want a "frank discussion." He said they are not welcome in France so spare me the nonsense.

This is his opinion, but he hasn't said that he wants them banned. As a significant proportion of the population does question their role, perhaps a frank discussion would be a good idea? Better than banning them outright, which many European countries have done?