god=caring?

[12th Doctor]

Or more to the point, why do you think that a caring being, who has the power to do so, ought to force people to do what is best for them?

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

which one do you want me to answer?

[Alcon]

Or more to the point, why do you think that a caring being, who has the power to do so, ought to force people to do what is best for them?

How could an omniscient and omnipotent God not?

[12th Doctor]

which one do you want me to answer?

The one that says "more to the point".

[12th Doctor]

Or more to the point, why do you think that a caring being, who has the power to do so, ought to force people to do what is best for them?

How could an omniscient and omnipotent God not?

Can and do are as different as can and should.

[Tonberry]

Personally, I think it's possible for a God to be caring, but not the God you find with a strict interpretation of the Bible. A loose interpretation sure, but when you have institutions like Hell, it just gets too hard.

Here's an example. God created the universe and created the possibility of evil to exist in the universe. God, being omnipotent, knew and knows how everything will play out in the end, including who will be sent to Heaven and who will be sent to Hell. Why would God create people who He knew were doomed from the start to be subjected to everlasting torment that He has, due to His omnipotence, the ability to abolish? Sure you can come up with reasons for this kind of behavior from your deity, but none of these reasons are because He "cares" (in any rational sense of the word) about these sinners.

[Citizen James]

This is actually a very old question.  One that philosophers and theologians have wrestled with for millennia.  It is generally called the problem of evil

There are a vast number of of possible explanations (or which these are just a few).

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Personally, I think it's possible for a God to be caring, but not the God you find with a strict interpretation of the Bible. A loose interpretation sure, but when you have institutions like Hell, it just gets too hard.

Is that you, JSJ?

[Mechaman]

Failure: There is no god.

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

Or more to the point, why do you think that a caring being, who has the power to do so, ought to force people to do what is best for them?

force is a harsh word. Because if god did do that we would never know. So we would think it was in our nature. But my over all answer is yes he should. sorry for the confusion earlier today.

[12th Doctor]

Or more to the point, why do you think that a caring being, who has the power to do so, ought to force people to do what is best for them?

force is a harsh word. Because if god did do that we would never know. So we would think it was in our nature. But my over all answer is yes he should. sorry for the confusion earlier today.

So you believe that it is caring, indeed, loving, to rob someone of their ability to think and act for themselves?  You honestly think that a caring individual would create a bunch of beings, simply to act as doers of his will, with absolutely no choice in the matter?  That a caring person would not instead try to give others the wisdom and occasional assistance, to carry out good, purely on their own merits and thus truly do good, as opposed to just acting out the motions?

If a person, just another human being, robbed you of your ability to think or act independently, but in exchange made sure that you always did the best thing, without having picked that for yourself, or endured the hardships of having to struggle to come to right, then would you feel that person was acting in a loving way toward you?

[12th Doctor]

Honestly, I am totally astounded, because I thought that there was no way a right thinking individual, once having really thought about it, could answer "yes" to my last question.  I don't really see "Big Brother" as being a positive force in life... and certainly not to the extreme of someone saying that it is caring to disallow people from having free will.

[Tonberry]

If God set up the initial conditions of the universe and knew exactly how everything would play out, depending on how he set up the initial conditions, how much room is there really for free will?

And really, I'm hesitant to say this, since it's nitpicking, but you can't be robbed of free will if you never had it to begin with. If free will is declared a gift, then the absence wouldn't be considered a robbery.

I don't like the idea of being controlled much either, but I do think that being given the ability to turn from God and being tormented eternally isn't much of an alternative.

[12th Doctor]

If God set up the initial conditions of the universe and knew exactly how everything would play out, depending on how he set up the initial conditions, how much room is there really for free will?

Predetermination =/= Predestination.  Knowing something will happen does not mean that you forced those events to occur.  Knowledge of outcomes does not effect the fact that choices must be made to achieve those outcomes.  Foreknowledge does not imply control.

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Not only is it nitpicking, but it is beside the point.  The driving focus is whether or not one ought to consider it loving to allow people the option of informed choice, over forcing them to your will, understanding that even if they are forced into good, it is not a virtuous good, as the option was never given to do anything else.

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God is forgiving.  Those who simply cannot, or will not accept this distance themselves from God.  God doesn't send you to Hell, just as he doesn't force you into evil  You do it yourself.

[Tonberry]

First, I'd like to just say that you make great points and discussing this with you is enjoyable.

Predetermination =/= Predestination.  Knowing something will happen does not mean that you forced those events to occur.  Knowledge of outcomes does not effect the fact that choices must be made to achieve those outcomes.  Foreknowledge does not imply control.

Well, I'm sort of on board. I really just meant to throw that out there. While I do think there is room for free will within a Christian context, I do think that God, setting up the initial conditions of the universe in his particular way, did have a strong impact on the the ultimate playing out of the universe. I cannot deny that he gave free will (because this cannot be determined), but he did set up the stimuli to which we would respond. This is tough to explain, but although God did not force humans to make their decisions, he, by setting up the conditions of the universe, set up the choices that each human had to make. Think of it as God putting you in your own situation, knowing your own biases, experiences, values, and psychology. While you might argue that this isn't direct control, God's foreknowledge and control of the makeup of the universe would definitely nudge every one of us in one direction or another.

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Very valid point. I just thought you were playing around with connotations and didn't like the tone of your argument--not that your position lacks support. It just didn't come off well. We should drop this point of argument, since it's worthless to discuss.

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I, personally, would only agree with this if a sinner could pull himself out of Hell by repenting. Otherwise, I would consider the faith requirement (accepting God while you're still lacking any proof of his existence) to be arbitrary and rather vain.

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You may consider this nitpicking, but if "cannot" is the word you're using, then that would not make it that particular sinner's fault. If he "will not" accept God, that's more reasonable, but if he is unable to, then he deserves no punishment.

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And this is simply where we disagree. God, who upholds the institution of Hell--at least in my viewpoint--has no right to be called compassionate. Argue all you want that the sinner is responsible for his trip to Hell, but nothing prevents God from abolishing Hell or plucking sinners from the fire if they choose to turn to him after their deaths. I think it's pretty terrible for God to allow one to exist, knowing that one's eventual fate is torment.

And just as a reminder, I'm not an atheist and I'm not closed to the idea of religion. I just don't buy into a strict interpretation of the Bible. I just wanted to put that out there, for what it's worth.

Anyway, that's how I currently see things and I certainly want to hear more from you.

[Alcon]

Chris -- I never claimed that foreknowledge entails control.  But omniscient omnipotence does; God has all worldly non-contradictory possibilities available, with full foreknowledge, and chose this one.

The idea behind the argument is that God "allowed" nothing, having created us with knowledge that we would do x, the alternative to make is do y, and no greater or lesser freedom associated with setting in effect the "dominoes" that would lead to x.

There are probably some apologetic arguments against this that I haven't heard, but yours doesn't address the problem.  The problem of evil is a separate matter.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Failure: There is no god.

     While I do not believe in God myself, I do not know if I agree with phrasing it as a statement of fact.

[Mechaman]

Failure: There is no god.

     While I do not believe in God myself, I do not know if I agree with phrasing it as a statement of fact.

Sorry, I felt like being a joke troll if you get what I'm saying. Everybody, get back to your debate!

[JSojourner]

Is God really an all caring god? if he wants the best for us why is there suffering?
opinions?

Hi, DC....

I can give you an answer to the second question first.  Two answers, if you like.  :-)

One is the doctrinal answer.  Christian theology teaches that there is suffering because humanity rebelled against God and, by extension, chose sin and suffering as a path.  I find this doctrine wholly credible.  It does not, however, nullify the old question that goes hand in hand with the "why is there suffering" query.  That question is, "Why does God allow suffering?"

One can smugly sit back and say, "God allows suffering because humans choose it and they get what they deserve."  There is truth in that, in the sense that all actions and deeds have consequences.

But the better answer to the question, why does God allow suffering, is this:

I don't know.

I went through an excruciating crisis of faith about 15 years ago in which I came face to face with this question.  I have shared the story here before so I won't bore everyone with it again.  Suffice it to say that I realized there was no adequate answer to the question of "why".  In fact, "Why?" was really not the right question.  The better question is, "Who?"

That God permits human beings, good and bad, to suffer is indisputable.  That there are logical, but very cold and antiseptic, answers to the "Why?" question is equally indisputable.  The one answer that lends any meaning, comfort or sense to suffering is "who".

Is God an ivory tower being who sits coldly on His throne, rather enjoying the whole scene of us stewing in our juices?  No question -- humanity rebelled and sinned.  But what did God care to do about it? He is supposed to be the parent, after all.

C.S. Lewis puts it in starker terms.  He said, "Though an Atheist for many years, I came to believe that God was.  But I admit to more than a few moments wondering exactly what KIND of God was."  Is God a capricious bastard?  A petulant martinet toying with His human playthings?  A lofty, grandiose God who cares nothing for insignificant individuals and prefers to engage only in the "biggest picture" issues?  Why, after all, should the maker of all things -- the creator and sustainer of the universe -- even notice one hungry child?

Well, to paraphrase Maya Angelou, "Why does a caged bird sing?"  Because it must.

The Bible declares repeatedly that God sees human suffering, cares deeply and is moved with compassion.  St. Peter summed it up quite succinctly when he said, "Cast all your care on God, for He cares for you."

But even that...is that enough of an answer? Perhaps for some.

In my journey, it helped me not a whit to think that God -- in His heaven -- cared that my best friend had been brutally murdered.  Or that my father was addled by a stroke and a terrible aphasia and senility that robbed him of his dignity for 16 years.  Nice of God to care, I guess.  But lots of people saw my suffering and the suffering of those I loved...and cared right along with me.  I appreciated it.  But so what?

The thing God did that was so reckless, radical and scandalous was to go beyond just caring.  This is one of the main reasons, DC, that I am a Christian and not a member of some other honorable religion.  In Christianity, God Himself puts on skin.  God becomes so much more than the nice person who sent you a card and wished you well when you had your first chemo treatment or when your beloved pet died or when you went hungry for the third night in row.  God joins you in your pain.  God joined me, my friend, my Dad...in our pain.

The Bible speaks of Jesus Christ as God in the flesh carrying our suffering and sorrow.  The writer of Hebrews (I think) insists that God -- in Jesus Christ -- has tasted (exquisitely and excruciatingly) what it is to be human.  He is no ivory tower puppet master of the universe.  He is supreme and almighty...but he is meek, lowly, acquainted with suffering and intimately aware of how it feels to be stabbed in the back, lied about, mocked and oppressed.

He doesn't offer us a complete answer to the question, "why is there suffering".  He does offer to enter human suffering with us.  To feel it with us.  And to never leave us or forsake us.

One other thing to add and I shall mercifully shut my cyber-yap.  In addition to feeling our suffering and being with us in our pain, God expects his followers to be agents of hope and healing in the world.  Another of God's answers to suffering is you.  And me.  George Beverly Shea used to sing an old song called "You are the Finger of God".  More recently, songs and poems have been entitled, "You're the only Jesus Some Will Ever See."

If you see suffering -- if you are moved by pain -- God expects you (and me) to do something about it.

I hope that helps.  Above all, I hope you know that if you come to a different conclusion on the matter, I remain your friend.

[Countess Anya of the North Parish]

Is God really an all caring god? if he wants the best for us why is there suffering?
opinions?

Hi, DC....

I can give you an answer to the second question first.  Two answers, if you like.  :-)

One is the doctrinal answer.  Christian theology teaches that there is suffering because humanity rebelled against God and, by extension, chose sin and suffering as a path.  I find this doctrine wholly credible.  It does not, however, nullify the old question that goes hand in hand with the "why is there suffering" query.  That question is, "Why does God allow suffering?"

One can smugly sit back and say, "God allows suffering because humans choose it and they get what they deserve."  There is truth in that, in the sense that all actions and deeds have consequences.

But the better answer to the question, why does God allow suffering, is this:

I don't know.

I went through an excruciating crisis of faith about 15 years ago in which I came face to face with this question.  I have shared the story here before so I won't bore everyone with it again.  Suffice it to say that I realized there was no adequate answer to the question of "why".  In fact, "Why?" was really not the right question.  The better question is, "Who?"

That God permits human beings, good and bad, to suffer is indisputable.  That there are logical, but very cold and antiseptic, answers to the "Why?" question is equally indisputable.  The one answer that lends any meaning, comfort or sense to suffering is "who".

Is God an ivory tower being who sits coldly on His throne, rather enjoying the whole scene of us stewing in our juices?  No question -- humanity rebelled and sinned.  But what did God care to do about it? He is supposed to be the parent, after all.

C.S. Lewis puts it in starker terms.  He said, "Though an Atheist for many years, I came to believe that God was.  But I admit to more than a few moments wondering exactly what KIND of God was."  Is God a capricious bastard?  A petulant martinet toying with His human playthings?  A lofty, grandiose God who cares nothing for insignificant individuals and prefers to engage only in the "biggest picture" issues?  Why, after all, should the maker of all things -- the creator and sustainer of the universe -- even notice one hungry child?

Well, to paraphrase Maya Angelou, "Why does a caged bird sing?"  Because it must.

The Bible declares repeatedly that God sees human suffering, cares deeply and is moved with compassion.  St. Peter summed it up quite succinctly when he said, "Cast all your care on God, for He cares for you."

But even that...is that enough of an answer? Perhaps for some.

In my journey, it helped me not a whit to think that God -- in His heaven -- cared that my best friend had been brutally murdered.  Or that my father was addled by a stroke and a terrible aphasia and senility that robbed him of his dignity for 16 years.  Nice of God to care, I guess.  But lots of people saw my suffering and the suffering of those I loved...and cared right along with me.  I appreciated it.  But so what?

The thing God did that was so reckless, radical and scandalous was to go beyond just caring.  This is one of the main reasons, DC, that I am a Christian and not a member of some other honorable religion.  In Christianity, God Himself puts on skin.  God becomes so much more than the nice person who sent you a card and wished you well when you had your first chemo treatment or when your beloved pet died or when you went hungry for the third night in row.  God joins you in your pain.  God joined me, my friend, my Dad...in our pain.

The Bible speaks of Jesus Christ as God in the flesh carrying our suffering and sorrow.  The writer of Hebrews (I think) insists that God -- in Jesus Christ -- has tasted (exquisitely and excruciatingly) what it is to be human.  He is no ivory tower puppet master of the universe.  He is supreme and almighty...but he is meek, lowly, acquainted with suffering and intimately aware of how it feels to be stabbed in the back, lied about, mocked and oppressed.

He doesn't offer us a complete answer to the question, "why is there suffering".  He does offer to enter human suffering with us.  To feel it with us.  And to never leave us or forsake us.

One other thing to add and I shall mercifully shut my cyber-yap.  In addition to feeling our suffering and being with us in our pain, God expects his followers to be agents of hope and healing in the world.  Another of God's answers to suffering is you.  And me.  George Beverly Shea used to sing an old song called "You are the Finger of God".  More recently, songs and poems have been entitled, "You're the only Jesus Some Will Ever See."

If you see suffering -- if you are moved by pain -- God expects you (and me) to do something about it.

I hope that helps.  Above all, I hope you know that if you come to a different conclusion on the matter, I remain your friend.

wow. that was a great answer. I get what you mean.

[pbrower2a]

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No, love is the willingness to suffer -- to sacrifice one's self-interest, self-esteem, and potential joy for something that one considers worthy.

Such suggests a limit to love.

[pbrower2a]

If God is just, caring, competent, and powerful, then why did the Holocaust happen?

Were I God I would have transmuted some lead object into U-235 in the presence of Hitler and his henchmen... and detonated it.