Gay marriage ban upheld in California

[Joe Republic]

I believe God is bisexual, and I challenge you to prove me wrong.

But I notice that my assertion was correct, i.e. you obviously haven't read or understood the empirical evidence on the causes of homosexuality, so you rely on the writings of some random people thousands of years ago instead.  It's probably better if you stay out of discussions on gay marriage until you can understand the broader concepts first.

With such a statement as you have just made, it's definitely better that you stay out of discussions about God until you can understand the broader concepts first.

Let me guess: you believe homosexuality is a choice too, right?

[Alcon]

Defense of real marriage is neither bigoted nor ignorant.

What gay marriage does in fact do is debase, demean and trivialize real marriage.  Therefore, if gay marriage becomes law, what the gay community has accomplished is in fact to debase, demean, and trivialize real marriage.

Do you have ideas, or do you limit yourself to just opinions?

I find it patently offensive that you think gays entering the same unions "demeans" or "trivializes" the institution.  You may not agree with their relationships, but the idea that they "pollute" our real marriage goes beyond simple knee-jerk theological disagreement.  It's intentionally demeaning and being spiteful against them.  It is bigoted.

I have known many gay marriage opponents who address the issue respectfully -- you are not one of them.

[Tender Branson]

New CA numbers from SurveyUSA:

600 CA adults, May 26

Do you think same-sex couples should? Or should not? be allowed to marry in California?

45% Should
53% Should Not

California's Supreme Court has upheld Proposition 8, which bans gay marriage. Do you agree? Or disagree? With the Court's ruling upholding Proposition 8?

56% Agree
40% Disagree

The Court also ruled that same-sex couples who were legally married before Proposition 8 became law will remain legally married. Do you agree? Or disagree? With this portion of the ruling?

60% Agree
35% Disagree

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=e4865399-94a0-495e-a475-cd345dfcd36a

600 CA adults, May 22

Do you think same-sex couples should? Or should not? be allowed to marry in California?

47% Should
49% Should Not

In California, should Proposition 8 remain law? Or should Proposition 8 be overturned?

49% Remain Law
38% Be Overturned

The California Supreme Court will announce its ruling on Proposition 8 on Tuesday morning. Do you think they will rule to keep Proposition 8 in place? Or do you think they will rule to overturn Proposition 8?

51% Vote To Keep
39% Vote To Overturn

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=5a8ab8b0-ef7a-43f7-b7d9-3b3240c48051

In New York, it's 46-46 according to Siena.

That proves that Gay Marriage is running about 15 points behind Obama's share in 2008, maybe more in Southern states.

[justfollowingtheelections]

BushOklahoma, Ill only say one thing:  How can anyone say w a str8 face that homosexuality is a choice when every gay person tells you that it is not?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

BushOklahoma, Ill only say one thing:  How can anyone say w a str8 face that homosexuality is a choice when every gay person tells you that it is not?

Not every gay person.

[justfollowingtheelections]

BushOklahoma, Ill only say one thing:  How can anyone say w a str8 face that homosexuality is a choice when every gay person tells you that it is not?

Not every gay person.

Well, most.  Those for whom it was a choice are probably not really gay anyway

[Marokai Backbeat]

BushOklahoma, Ill only say one thing:  How can anyone say w a str8 face that homosexuality is a choice when every gay person tells you that it is not?

Not every gay person.

It's not a choice, period. And it's really insulting that someone would seriously believe such a thing.

There is no way to be kind about this, and I know I'm just coming across as a one-liner in this thread, but there really is nothing to say about this. If you actually think someone chooses to be gay than I really don't have anything to say aside from the fact that I feel really, really sorry for you.

[Keystone Phil]

I don't believe being gay to be a choice but I do find it hilarious when gays (particularly one of my lesbian - or is she bisexual this week? - friends who is absolutely fanatical about being gay) say "Oh, yeah, that was when so and so was a lesbian."

I'm dead serious. My friend recently told me that a friend of her's (who is now married to a man) "was" a lesbian. I hardly ever engage her on "gay issues" so I just let it go but I couldn't believe that she would say that.

[Joe Republic]

I don't believe being gay to be a choice but I do find it hilarious when gays (particularly one of my lesbian - or is she bisexual this week? - friends who is absolutely fanatical about being gay) say "Oh, yeah, that was when so and so was a lesbian."

I'm dead serious. My friend recently told me that a friend of her's (who is now married to a man) "was" a lesbian. I hardly ever engage her on "gay issues" so I just let it go but I couldn't believe that she would say that.

Interestingly, I have read evidence that sexuality in women tends to be a lot less defined than in men.  I've noticed it anecdotally too.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I dislike talking about theories on sexual orientation because I always sound like I haven't a clue what I'm talking about and I articulate myself terribly but,

I believe we're probably all bisexual on some level though due to social conditioning in our more evolved stage as a species we've come to accept the black and white sexual definitions for those of us with dominant attraction to one sex. For the same reason I thought I liked girls when I was a little boy, I soon grew into my own to realize my attraction to guys as I got older. Sometimes it's not as simple for people, and it takes them decades to realize their sexuality.

I see no reason why one's attraction to the same sex couldn't show itself at some point in one's life (I keep saying your ) but for someone to think only along the lines of "straight vs. gay" and always having it, in their mind, one way or another.

This is all a messy matter I really don't have any expertise in whatsoever, and barely any knowledge, but the mind is certainly a complicated thing. I don't see any reason, though, why someone would consciously make the decision to just decide to date the other sex after they "got tired" of doing things the "normal" way. Then again, it could seriously just be a thing with women, since I've heard that sort of thing from an old friend's mom

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

One problem I have with the whole "homosexuality is not a choice, therefore it must be good" argument is that for example, alcoholics should happily indulge their tendency to drink irresponsibility since it is only natural for them to do so.

Note:  I am not saying that homosexuality is a undesirable trait to have as is the case with alcoholism, just that the "inherent tendencies are always good and proper" axiom is demonstrably false.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I honestly see no reason to make that point unless some part of you actually believes homosexuality is harmful in some way.

[Joe Republic]

I find that left-handedness vs. right-handedness is a better comparison.  People don't decide which hand they'll prefer to use in later life.

[Keystone Phil]

I honestly see no reason to make that point unless some part of you actually believes homosexuality is harmful in some way.

I hate when people do this. God forbid you compare logic used in one case to logic used in another. He's not saying homosexuality is like alcoholism in that it is undesirable! He's comparing how people make choices with each.

[Alcon]

One problem I have with the whole "homosexuality is not a choice, therefore it must be good" argument

That's not an argument I've ever seen here, this thread included.  The argument is that "it's not race, it's sexual orientation" is a poor argument if it's established that homosexuality is A) not inherently undesirable, B) is not elective -- because then the distinctions usually made to defend a "separate but equal" situation are removed.

[??????????]

I find that left-handedness vs. right-handedness is a better comparison.  People don't decide which hand they'll prefer to use in later life.

No, but in the (recent) past they were trained by schools to use one hand (right) over another.

[Joe Republic]

I find that left-handedness vs. right-handedness is a better comparison.  People don't decide which hand they'll prefer to use in later life.

No, but in the (recent) past they were trained by schools to use one hand (right) over another.

I know, and again the comparison is fitting, as there was no real reason for doing so other than the minority option being seen as 'evil'.

[MaxQue]

I honestly see no reason to make that point unless some part of you actually believes homosexuality is harmful in some way.

I hate when people do this. God forbid you compare logic used in one case to logic used in another. He's not saying homosexuality is like alcoholism in that it is undesirable! He's comparing how people make choices with each.

The difference is than the good choice is to stop alcoholism and the good choice for gay is to live that fact.

States, indeed, some will lie to themselves and live as heterosexual people and be sad even if they are gay.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I honestly see no reason to make that point unless some part of you actually believes homosexuality is harmful in some way.

I hate when people do this. God forbid you compare logic used in one case to logic used in another. He's not saying homosexuality is like alcoholism in that it is undesirable! He's comparing how people make choices with each.

I simply don't understand why he felt the need to bring it up. No one was making that point anyway, so unless he actually believed it was harmful, it wasn't necessary to compare it to alcoholism no matter the point he was trying to make.

[Keystone Phil]

I honestly see no reason to make that point unless some part of you actually believes homosexuality is harmful in some way.

I hate when people do this. God forbid you compare logic used in one case to logic used in another. He's not saying homosexuality is like alcoholism in that it is undesirable! He's comparing how people make choices with each.

The difference is than the good choice is to stop alcoholism and the good choice for gay is to live that fact.

Uh...ok. Right. Again, continue to not understand logic. Thumbs up.

I honestly see no reason to make that point unless some part of you actually believes homosexuality is harmful in some way.

I hate when people do this. God forbid you compare logic used in one case to logic used in another. He's not saying homosexuality is like alcoholism in that it is undesirable! He's comparing how people make choices with each.

I simply don't understand why he felt the need to bring it up. No one was making that point anyway, so unless he actually believed it was harmful, it wasn't necessary to compare it to alcoholism no matter the point he was trying to make.

Uh...he felt the need to bring it up because we were talking about choices and what comes naturally. It was perfectly relevant to the discussion and he was not saying that being gay was like being an alcoholic as if both are diseases that you have to recover from.

You simply see alcoholism and don't care to read the comparison. You fail to recognize the logic and you go into attack mode.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     A sad day for liberty-minded individuals, though victory is something that is long in coming & we cannot allow ourselves to be discouraged by a few potholes in the road. Hopefully one day California will rejoin Massachusetts, Connecticut, Iowa, Vermont, & Maine in extending full marriage rights to homosexual couples.

[MaxQue]

I understand the logic. I just fail to see why he brings that argument to destroy an argument who wasn't there.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Phil I have no desire to bicker with you over something I have a genuine interest in watching, a discussion on sexual orientation. Please don't make this into something it doesn't have to be.

We were doing so well.

[??????????]

    A sad day for liberty-minded individuals, though victory is something that is long in coming & we cannot allow ourselves to be discouraged by a few potholes in the road. Hopefully one day California will rejoin Massachusetts, Connecticut, Iowa, Vermont, & Maine in extending full marriage rights to homosexual couples.

What? The majority of people spoke and didn't want gay marriage. Whether you agree with gay marriage or not the court did the right thing by not going against the will of the people.

[Marokai Backbeat]

    A sad day for liberty-minded individuals, though victory is something that is long in coming & we cannot allow ourselves to be discouraged by a few potholes in the road. Hopefully one day California will rejoin Massachusetts, Connecticut, Iowa, Vermont, & Maine in extending full marriage rights to homosexual couples.

What? The majority of people spoke and didn't want gay marriage. Whether you agree with gay marriage or not the court did the right thing by not going against the will of the people.

Cue the slavery, interracial marriage, and segregation arguments.