Why is it cool to persecute Christians?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Despite the lack of any evidence at all backing it up, there is a general belief on this forum that Obama is a closet atheist shared by both non-religious liberals and religious conservatives.

[Joe Biden 2020]

First of all, I do believe President Obama is a Christian, just like I believe President Bush is a Christian and President Clinton before him.

Second, we're not persecuted in the same way that our brethren are in Arabic cultures and other third-world countries, but it still exists.  More and more, people are trying to silence us.  They're trying to tell our pastors what to preach, they've taken prayer out of the schools and sporting events and increasingly out of the courtroom and the Congressional chambers.  They've taken the 10 commandments off the courtroom walls.  They've taken the Nativity Scene off courtroom lawns at Christmas.  The next thing they'll do is take away our right to spread our faith wherever we want.  They're trying to keep Christianity inside the home and inside the church building walls, and trying to eliminate it from the outside.  They're basically telling Christians to leave their faith in their home and not bring it with them.  They can also legally arrest you for praying on the steps of the Supreme Court building or the steps of the US Capitol.

Everybody is trying to find where we went wrong in our schools and why its going down hill.  You have to look no further than 1963 when prayer was taken out of the schools.

However, they cannot and will not take God and prayer completely out of schools.  Students and even Faculty can still pray, if not out loud, then silently in their hearts or bless their food at lunch.  Moreover, they can live their lives as Christ would have them live it.  Actions do speak louder than words.

While I am concerned about where this country is headed, I do know that my God is still on the throne and still in control and HE will have the last word.  Nobody, liberal or conservative, has that priviliege.

[Franzl]

First of all, I do believe President Obama is a Christian, just like I believe President Bush is a Christian and President Clinton before him.

Second, we're not persecuted in the same way that our brethren are in Arabic cultures and other third-world countries, but it still exists.  More and more, people are trying to silence us.  They're trying to tell our pastors what to preach, they've taken prayer out of the schools and sporting events and increasingly out of the courtroom and the Congressional chambers.  They've taken the 10 commandments off the courtroom walls.  They've taken the Nativity Scene off courtroom lawns at Christmas.  The next thing they'll do is take away our right to spread our faith wherever we want.  They're trying to keep Christianity inside the home and inside the church building walls, and trying to eliminate it from the outside.  They're basically telling Christians to leave their faith in their home and not bring it with them.  They can also legally arrest you for praying on the steps of the Supreme Court building or the steps of the US Capitol.

Everybody is trying to find where we went wrong in our schools and why its going down hill.  You have to look no further than 1963 when prayer was taken out of the schools.

However, they cannot and will not take God and prayer completely out of schools.  Students and even Faculty can still pray, if not out loud, then silently in their hearts or bless their food at lunch.  Moreover, they can live their lives as Christ would have them live it.  Actions do speak louder than words.

While I am concerned about where this country is headed, I do know that my God is still on the throne and still in control and HE will have the last word.  Nobody, liberal or conservative, has that priviliege.

Glad to see you support theocracy.

[Magic 8-Ball]

Poor, persecuted supermajority. 

Can someone point to a mainstream movie where Christianity is bashed.  Bill Maher doesn't count, as he doesn't have much of a following.

Dogma, perhaps?  If that doesn't qualify I have nothing.  An even Dogma isn't so much bashing Christianity as affectionately irreverent towards it.

Kevin Smith is Catholic, if I recall.  I never had the impression that Dogma is meant to be insulting to Christianity, but more a reflection on Smith's opinion of the Vatican's conservatism and alleged infallibility.  It's been a good while since I've seen it, though, and it's possible that time has sifted things from my memory. 

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Oh, it's well known that Carter was the last president to regularly go to church.  Ever since then, presidents have made the excuse that they don't want disrupt people during their time of worship. 

I haven't read either of Obama's books, but doesn't he make mention of converting to Christianity due to its power and influence within the black community?  I'm not religious - and it doesn't matter to me if he is - but that doesn't strike me as a sincere reason to believe in God.

Everybody is trying to find where we went wrong in our schools and why its going down hill.  You have to look no further than 1963 when prayer was taken out of the schools.

What's the correlation between prayer and education?  I honestly don't see how one affects the other in any meaningful way.

[Joe Biden 2020]

Everybody is trying to find where we went wrong in our schools and why its going down hill.  You have to look no further than 1963 when prayer was taken out of the schools.

What's the correlation between prayer and education?  I honestly don't see how one affects the other in any meaningful way.

It goes back to 2 Chronicles 7:14 (I'm going to sound like jmfcst for a moment).  That verse says "If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then, will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sins, and will heal their land."  The way this verse relates to education that we should pray to our God and lift up our children that they will have the ability to learn effectively and our educators that they teach as effectively and impartially as they can.  It doesn't mean they teach Christianity, for that belongs in the home and in the church, but that they impart moral values and ethical conduct to their students and that they conduct themselves in a way that is honorable and can not be second-guessed on the intent of such conduct.  We pray to uphold this thing called "integrity".  It is severely lacking in today's public schools, and even a lot of private schools.

Plus, if we pray for our education system and those involved, both learning and teaching, that will in turn affect the corporate and working world that integrity and ethics will reign supreme.  Again, we don't have to teach Christianity, per se, but praying can only help, it can't hurt anything.

[Magic 8-Ball]

Everybody is trying to find where we went wrong in our schools and why its going down hill.  You have to look no further than 1963 when prayer was taken out of the schools.

What's the correlation between prayer and education?  I honestly don't see how one affects the other in any meaningful way.

It goes back to 2 Chronicles 7:14 (I'm going to sound like jmfcst for a moment).  That verse says "If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then, will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sins, and will heal their land."  The way this verse relates to education that we should pray to our God and lift up our children that they will have the ability to learn effectively and our educators that they teach as effectively and impartially as they can.  It doesn't mean they teach Christianity, for that belongs in the home and in the church, but that they impart moral values and ethical conduct to their students and that they conduct themselves in a way that is honorable and can not be second-guessed on the intent of such conduct.  We pray to uphold this thing called "integrity".  It is severely lacking in today's public schools, and even a lot of private schools.

Plus, if we pray for our education system and those involved, both learning and teaching, that will in turn affect the corporate and working world that integrity and ethics will reign supreme.  Again, we don't have to teach Christianity, per se, but praying can only help, it can't hurt anything.

So, they pray at home, and kids who don't need religion for that little thing you call "integrity" do just fine without the act.  Problem solved!

Seriously, I try not to demean people based upon religion (or in general), and I accept that we have different world views, but Christianity does not have a stranglehold morality, nor is it the sole gate to education.  I mean, how do you account for Western Europe, whose countries' educational systems aren't dominated by religion?

[Keystone Phil]

I mean, how do you account for Western Europe, whose countries' educational systems aren't dominated by religion?

Not exactly the best comparison since many of them have strong roots in religion.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

But not in the sense BushOklahoma is talking about.

[Joe Biden 2020]

Everybody is trying to find where we went wrong in our schools and why its going down hill.  You have to look no further than 1963 when prayer was taken out of the schools.

What's the correlation between prayer and education?  I honestly don't see how one affects the other in any meaningful way.

It goes back to 2 Chronicles 7:14 (I'm going to sound like jmfcst for a moment).  That verse says "If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then, will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sins, and will heal their land."  The way this verse relates to education that we should pray to our God and lift up our children that they will have the ability to learn effectively and our educators that they teach as effectively and impartially as they can.  It doesn't mean they teach Christianity, for that belongs in the home and in the church, but that they impart moral values and ethical conduct to their students and that they conduct themselves in a way that is honorable and can not be second-guessed on the intent of such conduct.  We pray to uphold this thing called "integrity".  It is severely lacking in today's public schools, and even a lot of private schools.

Plus, if we pray for our education system and those involved, both learning and teaching, that will in turn affect the corporate and working world that integrity and ethics will reign supreme.  Again, we don't have to teach Christianity, per se, but praying can only help, it can't hurt anything.

So, they pray at home, and kids who don't need religion for that little thing you call "integrity" do just fine without the act.  Problem solved!

Seriously, I try not to demean people based upon religion (or in general), and I accept that we have different world views, but Christianity does not have a stranglehold morality, nor is it the sole gate to education.  I mean, how do you account for Western Europe, whose countries' educational systems aren't dominated by religion?

I believe God is the God of all the world, not just of America or certain parts of America.  He is the same God who is the God of Oklahoma, as California, as France, Cameroon, Australia, Jordan, and even Bangladesh, just to name a few places.  Not all these places recognize that God is in control, but that doesn't deny His existence and His longing to have a relationship with them.  He doesn't need any body, but He desires a relationship with them, but that's a discussion for another thread.  He does desire to guide us in all of our decisions, from our personal life, education, corporate world, retired world, scientific world, and so on.  God does not need anybody, but everybody needs God.  Its that simple.

[Stranger in a strange land]

Despite the lack of any evidence at all backing it up, there is a general belief on this forum that Obama is a closet atheist shared by both non-religious liberals and religious conservatives.

I do believe Obama is a genuine Christian, but he strikes me as more the Easter and Christmas variety, the type who believes but only rarely goes to Church or makes any open display of their faith.

And now obama wants to pass laws like they have in Europe where Pastors can't proclaim the word of God from the pulpit if it offends the Gays or such like that.

Groups like the KKK still exist and are allowed to hold rallies and preach racism. I'm pretty sure your homophobic pastors are safe. Can you please cite a single instance of Obama proposing or advocating any such law (ie one directed at pastors preaching against homosexuality)?

[Magic 8-Ball]

I mean, how do you account for Western Europe, whose countries' educational systems aren't dominated by religion?

Not exactly the best comparison since many of them have strong roots in religion.

I did a quick perusal of Wikipedia articles on education in various European countries' and I can't find one where Christianity or prayer is stressed.  France's, in particular, stresses that the notion of laïcité, or secularity in society extends into the classroom.  The closest I could find was an example schedule in Italy where an optional religion class was taught on Saturday.  If you could find one where religion is stressed, I would be interested in reading about it. 

I suppose I could have saved time by quoting:

But not in the sense BushOklahoma is talking about.

I believe God is the God of all the world, not just of America or certain parts of America.  He is the same God who is the God of Oklahoma, as California, as France, Cameroon, Australia, Jordan, and even Bangladesh, just to name a few places.  Not all these places recognize that God is in control, but that doesn't deny His existence and His longing to have a relationship with them.  He doesn't need any body, but He desires a relationship with them, but that's a discussion for another thread.  He does desire to guide us in all of our decisions, from our personal life, education, corporate world, retired world, scientific world, and so on.  God does not need anybody, but everybody needs God.  Its that simple.

That's nice.  I still don't see why that proves that public schools need 2 Corinthians to be successful, especially when the countries that top the OECD's education ranking don't bother with it.  If you don't like the Western Europe comparison, fine, let's go with Asia.  Taiwan and South Korea top Math and Reading, respectively.  Do you think their success is due to Christianity?

[Joe Biden 2020]

I believe God is the God of all the world, not just of America or certain parts of America.  He is the same God who is the God of Oklahoma, as California, as France, Cameroon, Australia, Jordan, and even Bangladesh, just to name a few places.  Not all these places recognize that God is in control, but that doesn't deny His existence and His longing to have a relationship with them.  He doesn't need any body, but He desires a relationship with them, but that's a discussion for another thread.  He does desire to guide us in all of our decisions, from our personal life, education, corporate world, retired world, scientific world, and so on.  God does not need anybody, but everybody needs God.  Its that simple.

That's nice.  I still don't see why that proves that public schools need 2 Corinthians to be successful, especially when the countries that top the OECD's education ranking don't bother with it.  If you don't like the Western Europe comparison, fine, let's go with Asia.  Taiwan and South Korea top Math and Reading, respectively.  Do you think their success is due to Christianity?

Honestly?  Yes, I do.  God is at work despite and even inspite of humans.  Again, God does not need us to tell him what to do and where to do it.  He bestows his blessings on anyone He chooses, and quality education, I believe is one of His blessings.

[Keystone Phil]

I mean, how do you account for Western Europe, whose countries' educational systems aren't dominated by religion?

Not exactly the best comparison since many of them have strong roots in religion.

I did a quick perusal of Wikipedia articles on education in various European countries' and I can't find one where Christianity or prayer is stressed.

I never said that Christianity and/or prayer is stressed; I said the great educational institutions in Europe were rooted in religion. We wouldn't have these institutions if it wasn't for religion.

[Meeker]

First of all, I do believe President Obama is a Christian, just like I believe President Bush is a Christian and President Clinton before him.

Second, we're not persecuted in the same way that our brethren are in Arabic cultures and other third-world countries, but it still exists.  More and more, people are trying to silence us.  They're trying to tell our pastors what to preach, they've taken prayer out of the schools and sporting events and increasingly out of the courtroom and the Congressional chambers.  They've taken the 10 commandments off the courtroom walls.  They've taken the Nativity Scene off courtroom lawns at Christmas.  The next thing they'll do is take away our right to spread our faith wherever we want.  They're trying to keep Christianity inside the home and inside the church building walls, and trying to eliminate it from the outside.  They're basically telling Christians to leave their faith in their home and not bring it with them.  They can also legally arrest you for praying on the steps of the Supreme Court building or the steps of the US Capitol.

Everybody is trying to find where we went wrong in our schools and why its going down hill.  You have to look no further than 1963 when prayer was taken out of the schools.

However, they cannot and will not take God and prayer completely out of schools.  Students and even Faculty can still pray, if not out loud, then silently in their hearts or bless their food at lunch.  Moreover, they can live their lives as Christ would have them live it.  Actions do speak louder than words.

While I am concerned about where this country is headed, I do know that my God is still on the throne and still in control and HE will have the last word.  Nobody, liberal or conservative, has that priviliege.

what

[Coburn In 2012]

Despite the lack of any evidence at all backing it up, there is a general belief on this forum that Obama is a closet atheist shared by both non-religious liberals and religious conservatives.

I do believe Obama is a genuine Christian, but he strikes me as more the Easter and Christmas variety, the type who believes but only rarely goes to Church or makes any open display of their faith.

And now obama wants to pass laws like they have in Europe where Pastors can't proclaim the word of God from the pulpit if it offends the Gays or such like that.

Groups like the KKK still exist and are allowed to hold rallies and preach racism. I'm pretty sure your homophobic pastors are safe. Can you please cite a single instance of Obama proposing or advocating any such law (ie one directed at pastors preaching against homosexuality)?

It's all over Europe right now.  In sweden you get a month in jail for calling sodomy a sin, even though the bible says it is.  Now has obama come out immediately and passed such a law here?  No not yet, but have you ever heard of a slippery slope.

This is what liberals do.  They don't have to take a mile all at once, they just take an inch at a time.  First, it will be that businesses or landlords cannot decide who they rent to.  Even if its a couple of queens who want to have gay orgies. But people will say, no you can't descriminate against the gays.  Then it will be gay marriage.  Then it will be gay adoption.  Then churches and private Christian schools or even Moslem schools will be required to admit gays.  And then hire gays.  And before you know it freedom of speech will fall.  I don't know where the pastors and others will be in that rundown but some where along the line you can bet preaching against sodomy will be classified as a hate crime as sure as you live and breath.

[Magic 8-Ball]

I mean, how do you account for Western Europe, whose countries' educational systems aren't dominated by religion?

Not exactly the best comparison since many of them have strong roots in religion.

I did a quick perusal of Wikipedia articles on education in various European countries' and I can't find one where Christianity or prayer is stressed.

I never said that Christianity and/or prayer is stressed; I said the great educational institutions in Europe were rooted in religion. We wouldn't have these institutions if it wasn't for religion.

My point is that those institutions have little to nothing to do with religion now, and they are stronger than their American counterpart now.  I think that religion has a negligible effect on one's predisposition to learn.

If you agree (and it sounds like you do), then why respond at all?

Honestly?  Yes, I do.  God is at work despite and even inspite of humans.  Again, God does not need us to tell him what to do and where to do it.  He bestows his blessings on anyone He chooses, and quality education, I believe is one of His blessings.

But that isn't what you typed above.  You wrote that schools went downhill after prayer was removed.  In that light, how do you explain all of these educational systems thrive without it?

It's all over Europe right now.  In sweden you get a month in jail for calling sodomy a sin, even though the bible says it is.  Now has obama come out immediately and passed such a law here?  No not yet, but have you ever heard of a slippery slope.

Logical fallacy?

[Keystone Phil]

My point is that those institutions have little to nothing to do with religion now, and they are stronger than their American counterpart now.  I think that religion has a negligible effect on one's predisposition to learn.

If you agree (and it sounds like you do), then why respond at all?

It's because of fanatically religious people that these institutions became prestigious in the first place.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Christians need to STFU about their "persecution". After all, George HW Bush said this when he was running for President.

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

That is truly offensive. Imagine the outrage if he had said that about women or blacks.

[dead0man]

First of all, I do believe President Obama is a Christian, just like I believe President Bush is a Christian and President Clinton before him.

I believe all those people claimed they were Christians, Bush may have actually thought he was.  I'd bet your soul that they all claimed Christianity because it was easier than not.

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cite?

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What sporting events did they use to pray before and now no longer do?  The only sport I know of that consistently prayed was NASCAR and I'm pretty sure they still do.  And if they did stop, why?

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Now those two I kind of agree with you on.  A nativity scene on the courthouse park isn't hurting or condoning anything and people that get their panties in a twist over the 10 Commandments are over offended asshats

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Dude, you already can't do that.  You can preach whatever you want, whenever you want on your own property, or with some restrictions on public property...but you can't on mine.  You can't do it from the side of a road at a busy intersection.

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So on one hand you say that America started to go down the tubes when prayer was taken out of school, you then argue that they can't really take prayer out of schools and actions speak louder than words.  How can you be so wrong and then so right?

[Magic 8-Ball]

It's because of fanatically religious people that these institutions became prestigious in the first place.

So, your original comment has little to do with the discussion at hand?  Ok.

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

That is truly offensive. Imagine the outrage if he had said that about women or blacks.

Women are citizens?  Since when?

[Keystone Phil]

It's because of fanatically religious people that these institutions became prestigious in the first place.

So, your original comment has little to do with the discussion at hand?  Ok.

Actually, yes, it does. They're not currently dominated by religion but they're grand institutions because religion helped shape what they are today.

[Magic 8-Ball]

It's because of fanatically religious people that these institutions became prestigious in the first place.

So, your original comment has little to do with the discussion at hand?  Ok.

Actually, yes, it does. They're not currently dominated by religion but they're grand institutions because religion helped shape what they are today.

How does that support either Bush's belief that American's aren't performing well because religion isn't front and center or my assertion that Europeans are currently doing fine without it?

[Keystone Phil]

It's because of fanatically religious people that these institutions became prestigious in the first place.

So, your original comment has little to do with the discussion at hand?  Ok.

Actually, yes, it does. They're not currently dominated by religion but they're grand institutions because religion helped shape what they are today.

How does that support either Bush's belief that American's aren't performing well because religion isn't front and center or my assertion that Europeans are currently doing fine without it?

It doesn't. I'm just saying that your statement about religion not playing a role in the excellence of European educational institutions is a bit off. 

[Magic 8-Ball]

It's because of fanatically religious people that these institutions became prestigious in the first place.

So, your original comment has little to do with the discussion at hand?  Ok.

Actually, yes, it does. They're not currently dominated by religion but they're grand institutions because religion helped shape what they are today.

How does that support either Bush's belief that American's aren't performing well because religion isn't front and center or my assertion that Europeans are currently doing fine without it?

It doesn't. I'm just saying that your statement about religion not playing a role in the excellence of European educational institutions is a bit off. 

Hence

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And I never said that religion never played a role in education, just that it doesn't now.  It did, after all, preserve the history of ancient Europe during the Dark Ages.

[Keystone Phil]

And I never said that religion never played a role in education, just that it doesn't now.  It did, after all, preserve the history of ancient Europe during the Dark Ages.

Fair enough.