Mass Catholic pedophilia in Ireland

[afleitch]

It is by the grace of God that the Church no longer excerts the same control of instiutions both in Ireland and the UK, that the state takes an active roll and indeed the need for such institutions has ebbed away with advances in childcare, education and societal attitudes.

Wait a second, hang on, back up.  First off, religious organizations ran hundreds of institutions like this for hundreds of years and this kind of abuse is still relatively uncommon.  A number of the instances in this report date back many decades and represent only a small sample of children who went through these institutions.

Secondly, abuse of this kind is no less common in modern private care, or state run care institutions, and to suggest that it is is just ludicrous.  They just aren't nearly as visible.

I condemn these priests and the people who allowed this to continue, but to try to turn this into an argument for subsidized childcare is beneath you, my friend. 

That's not what I was getting at and certainly not regarding subsidized childcare! I am actually talking about institutions in general, religious or not.

From a UK perspective (and Ireland too), the government supported types of institutions that no correct society would now operate. These include borstals, laundrettes for young girls who got pregnant, young mental institutions that even kids with autism or dyslexia were thrown into etc.

These institutions operated before modern child care, child development, educational facilities were commonplace that took a more measured view of ability, of disability of what was 'morally' good/bad etc. They operated before the government took any interest in these matters whether paying for them (which is why religious orders did) or inspecting them.

It took, in the UK at least Enoch Powell of all people in the early 1960's to push for the end of 'institutionalisation' by which borstals, psychiatric homes etc were wound down and led to what 'care in the community' schemes in the 1980's where more time was taken to allow vulnerable adults and children to be cared in their own homes rather than in institutions.

It is now, therefore highly unusual to find any religious organisation running institutions for they have either been wound down, dispersed and those small scale that still operate are now inspected and monitored.

There was a dereliction of duty, by the Church for allowing this abuse and by the state (both UK and Ireland) for not investigating it/turning a blind eye because it relied heavily on charity and institutions so it did not have to pay for the burden and take responsibility for these youths.

[12th Doctor]

Well with the current trends of priests in the US, pretty soon 4% or 1% won't be a lot, simply due to the few priests there will be. I read somewhere at this rate there won't be any priests by 2070 or something like that.

Well, that is certainly true.

This is probably the biggest crisis the priesthood has faced since the aftermath of the Black Death.

[Keystone Phil]

Well with the current trends of priests in the US, pretty soon 4% or 1% won't be a lot, simply due to the few priests there will be. I read somewhere at this rate there won't be any priests by 2070 or something like that.

Well, that is certainly true.

This is probably the biggest crisis the priesthood has faced since the aftermath of the Black Death.

It was so depressing to celebrate only six priests being ordained recently in the Philadelphia Archdiocese (and two in the Camden diocese).

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Such an easy solution too yet they keep overlooking it. Let them marry. Boom, problem solved.

[Coburn In 2012]

I respect the Pope for his stands on the issues and I think the leftist dominated media will use this as an excuse for more persecution of Christians. 

but I do wonder why the church doesn't do a better job of keeping gays out of the priesthood.

[Keystone Phil]

Such an easy solution too yet they keep overlooking it. Let them marry. Boom, problem solved.

I'd support allowing women to become priests before letting them get married.

[memphis]

Wikipedia says four percent of US priests have been accused.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

I doubt four percent of rabbis or Baptist ministers or whoever are sexually abusing children. That's a really high number for such an inexcusable offense. Also, the efforts to cover up abuses make the situation so much worse. Again, can anybody say they are surprised by the Irish story?

First off, you are a dumbass.

Secondly, you are a dumbass.

Third, you are a dumbass.

The first reason you are a dumbass is because, as Phil was pointing out, accused and guilty are not the same thing.  I know of three priests who have been accused at some point, two of them I know never would (and no proof was ever presented), and in the third case, it was proven that the "victim" was lying (though the victim had been abused by his real father as a child).  In fact, all scientific studies suggest that pedophilia is no more common in the Catholic priesthood than in the general population, and that, aside from being committed to celibacy, the sexual leanings of the Catholic priesthood are generally in line with those of the population at large.  Something like 80% of the recorded cases of sexual abuse were committed by repeat offender priests, who had generally abused as many as five children.  Thus, only a couple hundred priests, over the last fifty years, have accounted for the vast majority of cases.

The second reason you are a dumbass is because, in fact, ministers from other faiths are no less likely to be convicted of such charges as Catholic priests.  When it happens, though, it usually stays local, because people from these other faiths don't have bishops, archbishops and the Vatican above them to point fingers at (deservedly, at times).

However, I will never forget the story, about six years ago, about a child porn ring that was busted in West Virginia.  The news loudly proclaimed that two Catholic priests had been arrested as having a role in it.  You had to dig deep into the story before you discovered that three protestant ministers had also been arrested on charges, in connection to the same ring.

Third, well dude, you are just a dumbass, so go f-uck yourself.

Emo much?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Wikipedia says four percent of US priests have been accused.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

I doubt four percent of rabbis or Baptist ministers or whoever are sexually abusing children. That's a really high number for such an inexcusable offense. Also, the efforts to cover up abuses make the situation so much worse. Again, can anybody say they are surprised by the Irish story?

First off, you are a dumbass.

Secondly, you are a dumbass.

Third, you are a dumbass.

The first reason you are a dumbass is because, as Phil was pointing out, accused and guilty are not the same thing.  I know of three priests who have been accused at some point, two of them I know never would (and no proof was ever presented), and in the third case, it was proven that the "victim" was lying (though the victim had been abused by his real father as a child).  In fact, all scientific studies suggest that pedophilia is no more common in the Catholic priesthood than in the general population, and that, aside from being committed to celibacy, the sexual leanings of the Catholic priesthood are generally in line with those of the population at large.  Something like 80% of the recorded cases of sexual abuse were committed by repeat offender priests, who had generally abused as many as five children.  Thus, only a couple hundred priests, over the last fifty years, have accounted for the vast majority of cases.

The second reason you are a dumbass is because, in fact, ministers from other faiths are no less likely to be convicted of such charges as Catholic priests.  When it happens, though, it usually stays local, because people from these other faiths don't have bishops, archbishops and the Vatican above them to point fingers at (deservedly, at times).

However, I will never forget the story, about six years ago, about a child porn ring that was busted in West Virginia.  The news loudly proclaimed that two Catholic priests had been arrested as having a role in it.  You had to dig deep into the story before you discovered that three protestant ministers had also been arrested on charges, in connection to the same ring.

Third, well dude, you are just a dumbass, so go f-uck yourself.

Emo much?

What's emo about that post? It includes capital letters, correct puncutation, a multi-paragraph format, and only one use of the word "fuck". THIS is an actual emo post on the forum, nothing like that.

ok, Inks, I won't curse you out.  just don't do that anymore.  because you want the numbers to look a certain way.  we all do.  but hey, it doesn't work out like that.  let me tell you a story, Inks.  back in the summer I hung out with this group.  we called it, The Group.  we hung out from mid-afternoon everyday to past midnight.  but then this girl came in.  well, she was there anyway, but she ed sh**t up hardcore.  and one of my friends was in love with her, but it was painfully obviously he'd never get with her.  then another of my friends fell in love with her around August 10th.  and she actually liked him.  but there was a problem.  my two friends that were in love with the same girl, they had been best friends forever.  literally.  so the friend that.  oh who cares.  the point is, it ed sh**t up.  and now The Group is no longer.  and I've tried to wink towards my past, but winking towards it doesn't work.  I've become obsessed with it.  and I want The Group back, but it's no longer.  I want the numbers to look a certain way.  but they don't.  sorry Inks.  it happens.  so don't mess with my entries and I won't mess with yours.  it's better that way.

[Keystone Phil]

Wikipedia says four percent of US priests have been accused.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

I doubt four percent of rabbis or Baptist ministers or whoever are sexually abusing children. That's a really high number for such an inexcusable offense. Also, the efforts to cover up abuses make the situation so much worse. Again, can anybody say they are surprised by the Irish story?

First off, you are a dumbass.

Secondly, you are a dumbass.

Third, you are a dumbass.

The first reason you are a dumbass is because, as Phil was pointing out, accused and guilty are not the same thing.  I know of three priests who have been accused at some point, two of them I know never would (and no proof was ever presented), and in the third case, it was proven that the "victim" was lying (though the victim had been abused by his real father as a child).  In fact, all scientific studies suggest that pedophilia is no more common in the Catholic priesthood than in the general population, and that, aside from being committed to celibacy, the sexual leanings of the Catholic priesthood are generally in line with those of the population at large.  Something like 80% of the recorded cases of sexual abuse were committed by repeat offender priests, who had generally abused as many as five children.  Thus, only a couple hundred priests, over the last fifty years, have accounted for the vast majority of cases.

The second reason you are a dumbass is because, in fact, ministers from other faiths are no less likely to be convicted of such charges as Catholic priests.  When it happens, though, it usually stays local, because people from these other faiths don't have bishops, archbishops and the Vatican above them to point fingers at (deservedly, at times).

However, I will never forget the story, about six years ago, about a child porn ring that was busted in West Virginia.  The news loudly proclaimed that two Catholic priests had been arrested as having a role in it.  You had to dig deep into the story before you discovered that three protestant ministers had also been arrested on charges, in connection to the same ring.

Third, well dude, you are just a dumbass, so go f-uck yourself.

Emo much?

I won't bother waiting for an argument refuting anything that was said.

[12th Doctor]

Such an easy solution too yet they keep overlooking it. Let them marry. Boom, problem solved.

I'd support allowing women to become priests before letting them get married.

Well, I think we might have no choice, before too long, which is unfortunate, because I don't think that's the problem.  The ranks of the clergy in other mainline Christian sects have thinned out about as much, and they have married pastors.

[12th Doctor]

It's just the fact that the priest alone is expected to do more, in the Catholic Church, that makes the dearth of our clergy so much more noticeable.

[afleitch]

It's just the fact that the priest alone is expected to do more, in the Catholic Church, that makes the dearth of our clergy so much more noticeable.

The fact that a priest has to be more that probably speeds up the 'death' of clergy all the more poignant.

The Instruction Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders is a poor fudge of an order designed to tackle pedophilia without mentioning pedophilia, by intimating that homosexual=pedophilia and makes a fair proclamation (fair in the sense of maintaining celebacy) against sexually active homosexual men entering holy orders but not against sexually active heterosexual men though there are vastly different interpretations.

There is also a very interesting correlation between men entering seminaries in England/Scotland and the years of decriminalisation of homosexuality in the respective countries (admissions peaked in the early 60's in England and in the mid 70's in Scotland) It was a refuge from a society and the law.

Part of me wonders whether hostility exists within the Church because the need for a refuge no longer exists ergo less potential clergy?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

This is/was not news. It was just officially conforming what was already known. Memphis is correct.

The second thing which no-one seems to be pointing out is to what extent clergy were being defended by religious orders and the catholic church (as well as the ordinary people too, let's not deny it) who knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it. Seriously Jesus Christ people, it was not just paedophilia but also effective child slavery as well which was aimed, abetted and ignored by the institution and not just the clergy in question, and no this is not an exaggeration.. I'm quite happy to bring up the revelant quotes in the report if anyone wishes to read them.

[Keystone Phil]

. Seriously Jesus Christ people, it was not just paedophilia but also effective child slavery as well which was aimed, abetted and ignored by the institution and not just the clergy in question, and no this is not an exaggeration..

...

Who denied any of that?

[Tetro Kornbluth]

. Seriously Jesus Christ people, it was not just paedophilia but also effective child slavery as well which was aimed, abetted and ignored by the institution and not just the clergy in question, and no this is not an exaggeration..

...

Who denied any of that?

Anyone who is trying to blame this mess on "just a few bad priests".

[Keystone Phil]

. Seriously Jesus Christ people, it was not just paedophilia but also effective child slavery as well which was aimed, abetted and ignored by the institution and not just the clergy in question, and no this is not an exaggeration..

...

Who denied any of that?

Anyone who is trying to blame this mess on "just a few bad priests".

No one denied that there was a cover up by the institution. We said "just a few bad priests" in regards to whose actually a pedophile.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

. Seriously Jesus Christ people, it was not just paedophilia but also effective child slavery as well which was aimed, abetted and ignored by the institution and not just the clergy in question, and no this is not an exaggeration..

...

Who denied any of that?

Anyone who is trying to blame this mess on "just a few bad priests".

No one denied that there was a cover up by the institution. We said "just a few bad priests" in regards to whose actually a pedophile.

Yes, okay then. But also this is not just a sexual scandal, it is a scandal of abuse of poor, often abadoned or illegitimate children (there is a whole class element to this as well; most of the abusers would have been middle class, well educated, of impeccable social standing, etc) by an instutionalized system aided and abetted by the Catholic Church and the Irish State and People. This was a system where violent beatings and "cruel and unusual punishment" were fairly regular, and was completely and utterly ignored. This was a system where at Goldenbridge children (young pre-adolescent children) were forced to make 60 rosaries a day on pain of severe beatings by nuns for a commercial company; The Sisters of Mercy (the order in question) pocketed the money to buy a holiday home for its members. This was an instutional problem, lay with a variety of powerful bodies, yes only a minority were paedophiles but a huge number of people knew what was going on.

[afleitch]

This was a system where at Goldenbridge children (young pre-adolescent children) were forced to make 60 rosaries a day on pain of severe beatings by nuns for a commercial company; The Sisters of Mercy (the order in question) pocketed the money to buy a holiday home for its members.

Good lord. That's disgusting.

[12th Doctor]

Phil,

I love how we are making absolutely no effort to cover up for these people and yet we are still being accused of doing so.

[12th Doctor]

. Seriously Jesus Christ people, it was not just paedophilia but also effective child slavery as well which was aimed, abetted and ignored by the institution and not just the clergy in question, and no this is not an exaggeration..

...

Who denied any of that?

Anyone who is trying to blame this mess on "just a few bad priests".

No one denied that there was a cover up by the institution. We said "just a few bad priests" in regards to whose actually a pedophile.

Yes, okay then. But also this is not just a sexual scandal, it is a scandal of abuse of poor, often abadoned or illegitimate children (there is a whole class element to this as well; most of the abusers would have been middle class, well educated, of impeccable social standing, etc) by an instutionalized system aided and abetted by the Catholic Church and the Irish State and People. This was a system where violent beatings and "cruel and unusual punishment" were fairly regular, and was completely and utterly ignored. This was a system where at Goldenbridge children (young pre-adolescent children) were forced to make 60 rosaries a day on pain of severe beatings by nuns for a commercial company; The Sisters of Mercy (the order in question) pocketed the money to buy a holiday home for its members. This was an instutional problem, lay with a variety of powerful bodies, yes only a minority were paedophiles but a huge number of people knew what was going on.

This chapter of the Sister of Mercy, yes.  The Sisters of Mercy have also founded innumerable universities, charities, etc all over the world where none-of-this occurred.

No one is covering up for these people, at least no one here, and no one in the Vatican, so stop saying that as proof of some pretext for evidence of some larger Catholic plot.

What these people did is horrible.  But leave responsibility with the perpetrators.  That's all we are getting at.

[Keystone Phil]

Phil,

I love how we are making absolutely no effort to cover up for these people and yet we are still being accused of doing so.

I'd expect nothing less from this crowd.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

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I don't deny this. Where did I say that?

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Wrong. Utterly Wrong. A large part of the Catholic establishment, hell, even ordinary people knew what was going on and ignored it/passed it by/etc. Many offenders were only moved to different parishes. I'm not basing this on actual conspiracy, I basing this well known facts on these cases. The Whole Catholic Church and religious orders in Ireland were responsible in one or other. No one dared to come forward.

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If you include those who shielded their eyes then you are talking a large number of clergy, especially in orders like the Christian Brothers, Sisters of Mercy, etc...

[12th Doctor]

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I don't deny this. Where did I say that?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Wrong. Utterly Wrong. A large part of the Catholic establishment, hell, even ordinary people knew what was going on and ignored it/passed it by/etc. Many offenders were only moved to different parishes. I'm not basing this on actual conspiracy, I basing this well known facts on these cases. The Whole Catholic Church and religious orders in Ireland were responsible in one or other. No one dared to come forward.

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If you include those who shielded their eyes then you are talking a large number of clergy, especially in orders like the Christian Brothers, Sisters of Mercy, etc...

1) "The Sisters of Mercy (the order in question".  You didn't bother to qualify that.

2) Whereas I did qualify my statement, when I suggested that no one on this board or at at the Vatican was covering for these people.  A qualifier that you ignored.

3) I never suggested otherwise.

[TeePee4Prez]

While the acts of the individual priests are disgusting, I must say this kinda thing goes on in any institution where adults have access to children even in public schools.  The Church as a whole is not at fault here.  I mean look at all the recent allegations of female teachers boinking male HS students.  Some of them are hot btw.  Do you blame the whole public school system here?  I don't think so.  However, I don't like the fact that there were a lot of cover-ups and simple transfers of priests within parts of the Catholic Church and I also think priests should be allowed to marry.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

While the acts of the individual priests are disgusting, I must say this kinda thing goes on in any institution where adults have access to children even in public schools.  The Church as a whole is not at fault here.  I mean look at all the recent allegations of female teachers boinking male HS students.  Some of them are hot btw.  Do you blame the whole public school system here?  I don't think so.  However, I don't like the fact that there were a lot of cover-ups and simple transfers of priests within parts of the Catholic Church and I also think priests should be allowed to marry.

Completely and utterly uncomparable situation.

And your signature is as dumb as hell.