opinion of this scene

[© tweed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FScv89J6rro


some of the best TV ever made

[Keystone Phil]

Tweed loves him some religion/God bashing. You're just so enlightened.

This was always one of the corny scenes that sticks out in my memory when I think of the West Wing. I mean, I literally start to gag. Oh, Jeb! Speak more Latin, baby. Show that God that you're in charge, Mr. President.

I love it. "3.8 million new jobs...bailed out Mexico...put Mendoza on the bench..."

Sure, it's dramatic but it's so incredibly corny.

[anvi]

I enjoyed the scene a lot.  It showed a frustrated president who had just lost an old friend in a car accident as confronting God with his grief and perceived injustice.  A lot of that same stuff goes on in the Psalms and the Book of Job.  But Skoble put God back in charge at the end of the same episode, when Mrs. Landingham appears in Bartlet's imagination in the Oval Office, and she gently scolds him, saying: "God doesn't make cars crash, and you know it.  Stop using me as an excuse."  I don't think the West Wing bashed religion at all, I think it made an effort to distinguish between phony and genuine religiosity (think of the way Al Caldwell was played off against Mary Marsh in the early episodes, or compare the episode where Bartlet scolds the conservative Christian radio talk show host with the episode where Bartlet finds out that the Chinese Christians who made it to America in a boat were genuine.  Personally, the only thing that bothered me about the National Cathedral scene was that it was a little too mild!

[Keystone Phil]

I enjoyed the scene a lot.  It showed a frustrated president who had just lost an old friend in a car accident as confronting God with his grief and perceived injustice.  A lot of that same stuff goes on in the Psalms and the Book of Job.  But Skoble put God back in charge at the end of the same episode, when Mrs. Landingham appears in Bartlet's imagination in the Oval Office, and she gently scolds him, saying: "God doesn't make cars crash, and you know it.  Stop using me as an excuse."

That's true but the scene was still over the top. I'm not one of these people that think you can't be frustrated with God (though I'm sure many will mischaracterize me as one of those). I do, however, hate it when people get out of control. Stomping on the cigarette on the altar? Give it a rest, Jeb. Go stroke your ego about creating jobs and...uh...appointing someone as judge...somewhere else.

The scene was just a silly hat tip to progressives that had to live in a fantasy land during the Bush years. I bet they're all hoping that Obama pulls some similar stunt and somehow wins Nebraska, the Dakotas, Louisiana...

[Purple State]

Phil, you misread the scene as an attack on religion, rather than what it really is, a catharsis.

I thought it was incredible. After what was going on in the previous episodes, this was a culmination of so much pent up energy. It was a sort of catharsis for the president and the viewers. I think it was moving in its own right, rather than a jab at any group.

If you want that then this is the scene you should criticize: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHaVUjjH3EI

Another phenomenal West Wing moment.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

If you want that then this is the scene you should criticize: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHaVUjjH3EI

ah, yes, Hollywood's strawman attempt to place the context of sex within a heterosexual marriage as an idea limited to the law of Moses in the bible...disregarding, of course, the obvious fact that this concept predated Moses having been in put in place during the time of Adam/Eve, and since being found also in the New Testament, outlived the lifespan of the Law of Moses.

How caring and thoughtful and more knowledgeable Hollywood makes itself look, as if we are the ones taking things out of context, when, in reality, it is they who are attempting to limit the context.  By chance, the verses of bestiality and incest are adjacent to the verses about homosexuality in Leviticus...who knows, maybe someday soon Hollywood will be making the same argument for bestiality and incest.

[12th Doctor]

Tweed loves him some religion/God bashing. You're just so enlightened.

This was always one of the corny scenes that sticks out in my memory when I think of the West Wing. I mean, I literally start to gag. Oh, Jeb! Speak more Latin, baby. Show that God that you're in charge, Mr. President.

I love it. "3.8 million new jobs...bailed out Mexico...put Mendoza on the bench..."

Sure, it's dramatic but it's so incredibly corny.

Obviously have never seen the entire episode.... and its Jed Bartlet.

[12th Doctor]

Phil, you misread the scene as an attack on religion, rather than what it really is, a catharsis.

[12th Doctor]

Phil, you misread the scene as an attack on religion, rather than what it really is, a catharsis.

The irony is, of course, that the viewer is supposed to understand the moment more or less exactly as Phil understands it.  You are just supposed to understand it in the context of the episode.

[Keystone Phil]

Tweed loves him some religion/God bashing. You're just so enlightened.

This was always one of the corny scenes that sticks out in my memory when I think of the West Wing. I mean, I literally start to gag. Oh, Jeb! Speak more Latin, baby. Show that God that you're in charge, Mr. President.

I love it. "3.8 million new jobs...bailed out Mexico...put Mendoza on the bench..."

Sure, it's dramatic but it's so incredibly corny.

Obviously have never seen the entire episode.... and its Jed Bartlet.

I've seen the entire episode several times. It's just so incredibly corny and it's meant for people like Tweed to drool over.

I always forget that the asshat is called Jed. Jeb just makes more sense "Josiah + Bartlett" but whatever.  

[© tweed]

Phil, I liked the scene because of its beautiful display of human emotion, not because it outs God as a vindictive criminal.

'enlightened' should best represent you, not me, however; you know the answers to questions such as, "what is the meaning of life?", and "how did the universe begin?", and "what is the ultimate fate of humanity?" whilst I know the answers to none of those.  I am an ignoramus in comparison to you.

[12th Doctor]

Tweed loves him some religion/God bashing. You're just so enlightened.

This was always one of the corny scenes that sticks out in my memory when I think of the West Wing. I mean, I literally start to gag. Oh, Jeb! Speak more Latin, baby. Show that God that you're in charge, Mr. President.

I love it. "3.8 million new jobs...bailed out Mexico...put Mendoza on the bench..."

Sure, it's dramatic but it's so incredibly corny.

Obviously have never seen the entire episode.... and its Jed Bartlet.

I've seen the entire episode several times. It's just so incredibly corny and it's meant for people like Tweed to drool over.

I always forget that the asshat is called Jed. Jeb just makes more sense "Josiah + Bartlett" but whatever.  

Okay, but then you should get that the whole point of the episode is not to glorify what happens in that one moment of weakness.

[anvi]

[The scene was just a silly hat tip to progressives that had to live in a fantasy land during the Bush years. I bet they're all hoping that Obama pulls some similar stunt and somehow wins Nebraska, the Dakotas, Louisiana...

If this was true, then there wouldn't have been the follow-up scene with Landingham scolding Bartlet for his impiety.  Neither would the whole "Take the Sabbath Day" episode have even been possible, where Bartlet gets hammered by a Jew, a Quaker and finally at the end a Catholic priest who he confesses to at the end of the episode for allowing a federal execution.  I agree entirely that the West Wing went over the top about a lot of things (the Bartlet-Ritchie election where Bartlet, censured for lying about MS in the first election cycle, wins the Dakotas, Louisianna, Arkansas, Kentucky ect. ect. against a centrist southern governor because of one debate performance??  Good grief..a nod to reality, please!)  But I never found the show to be over the top about religion. 

[12th Doctor]

[The scene was just a silly hat tip to progressives that had to live in a fantasy land during the Bush years. I bet they're all hoping that Obama pulls some similar stunt and somehow wins Nebraska, the Dakotas, Louisiana...

If this was true, then there wouldn't have been the follow-up scene with Landingham scolding Bartlet for his impiety.  Neither would the whole "Take the Sabbath Day" episode have even been possible, where Bartlet gets hammered by a Jew, a Quaker and finally at the end a Catholic priest who he confesses to at the end of the episode for allowing a federal execution.  I agree entirely that the West Wing went over the top about a lot of things (the Bartlet-Ritchie election where Bartlet, censured for lying about MS in the first election cycle, wins the Dakotas, Louisianna, Arkansas, Kentucky ect. ect. against a centrist southern governor because of one debate performance??  Good grief..a nod to reality, please!)  But I never found the show to be over the top about religion. 

Not to mention that the episode in question was likely written before the results of the 2000 election were fully known.  The West Wing writing schedule didn't enter the Bush Administration until season 3.

[Keystone Phil]

[The scene was just a silly hat tip to progressives that had to live in a fantasy land during the Bush years. I bet they're all hoping that Obama pulls some similar stunt and somehow wins Nebraska, the Dakotas, Louisiana...

If this was true, then there wouldn't have been the follow-up scene with Landingham scolding Bartlet for his impiety.  Neither would the whole "Take the Sabbath Day" episode have even been possible, where Bartlet gets hammered by a Jew, a Quaker and finally at the end a Catholic priest who he confesses to at the end of the episode for allowing a federal execution. 

Ok so just a jab at conservatives in general who support the death penalty and "claim" (a word I'm sure the writers would use) to be religious. 

My whole point here is that even if the writers intended for Bartlett to learn a lesson, the clueless, religion haters in the audience likely didn't pick up on it. Where was Tweed's post about the scene at the end? If this was truly supposed to be a religious debate, he would have posted that as well. No doubt that Tweed thought the whole egomaniac Bartlett act was "cool."

[© tweed]

Phil, you aren't right.  I'm slightly tired of your attempts to channel my thought patterns.

[Purple State]

Why is this being episode being read into as a jab at religion? Take it for what it is: a cathartic release of raw human emotion.

Especially when watching the episodes on DVD rather than when they originally aired (as I am doing), you get the buildup of emotion from the previous episodes faster because I don't wait a week between episodes. It just becomes a massive release of emotion. I think it is a great way to just relieve the audience of all the frustration and emotion building to that point.

[Keystone Phil]

Phil, you aren't right.  I'm slightly tired of your attempts to channel my thought patterns.

I'm not channeling anything. I'm sorry to disappoint you but you're the most readable member here. You're not original. Sorry.

Why is this being episode being read into as a jab at religion? Take it for what it is: a cathartic release of raw human emotion.

I'm not saying that the episode is a jab; I think they thought the scene carried a bonus for fans like Tweed. That's all. I thought it was very silly and just plays into the idea that Josiah Bartlett has an absolutely insane ego.

[© tweed]

Phil, you aren't right.  I'm slightly tired of your attempts to channel my thought patterns.

I'm not channeling anything. I'm sorry to disappoint you but you're the most readable member here. You're not original. Sorry.

it's amazing that you think you know my thought patterns better than I do.  and then you accuse me of having an enlightenment complex.

[Keystone Phil]

Phil, you aren't right.  I'm slightly tired of your attempts to channel my thought patterns.

I'm not channeling anything. I'm sorry to disappoint you but you're the most readable member here. You're not original. Sorry.

it's amazing that you think you know my thought patterns better than I do.  and then you accuse me of having an enlightenment complex.

Your struggle makes me weep, my friend. How will the world ever come to appreciate your unique, complexities, Tweed?

[12th Doctor]

Phil, there are two characters on the West Wing who are portrayed as being highly religious (Bartlet and Toby) and this is always shown in a positive light.  In a season 7 episode, it is a Religious Right pastor (Butler) and not the atheist Presidential candidate (Vinick) who is shown as being the bigger man.  If you are trying to sense some kinda extreme anti-religious bias in the West Wing, its not there.

[Keystone Phil]

If you are trying to sense some kinda extreme anti-religious bias in the West Wing, its not there.

As I've said several times now, I do not believe there is some anti religious bias in the show. I've said that the episode itself wasn't even a jab at religion. That has been ignored though. Try reading my points before responding.

I don't agree with the idea that Don Butler was seen as the bigger man. Vinick was always made out to be secular hero, telling the religious conservatives to keep their backwards ways in church, not in politics - "If you have questions about religion, go to church." Please don't tell me that the religious conservatives were made out to be nice, meek people in that final season, Super. Remember the campaign manager at the end and the discussions about the base?

[12th Doctor]

If you are trying to sense some kinda extreme anti-religious bias in the West Wing, its not there.

As I've said several times now, I do not believe there is some anti religious bias in the show. I've said that the episode itself wasn't even a jab at religion. That has been ignored though. Try reading my points before responding.

I don't agree with the idea that Don Butler was seen as the bigger man. Vinick was always made out to be secular hero, telling the religious conservatives to keep their backwards ways in church, not in politics - "If you have questions about religion, go to church." Please don't tell me that the religious conservatives were made out to be nice, meek people in that final season, Super. Remember the campaign manager at the end and the discussions about the base?

Watch again and note how they trash Butler the entire episode, but then Butler refuses to put Vinick in the position of having to make the "easy" decision.  It makes Butler come out appearing much better than Vinick's staff.

Note again how, in a later episode, Vinick lies to another social conservative (his name escapes me right now) outright about a pro-life candidates pledge.  Again, makes you feel worse for the guy he lied to.

[12th Doctor]

Vinick justifies it in his own mind by saying that he only lied to a liar, because he made that guy make the group, that I assume is supposed to be analogous to the Christian Coalition, promise to to say anything.  However, it is never revealed who made the information public.  It might not have been the gentleman in question at all, and Vinick just assumes it is, because that helps him feel better about himself.

[12th Doctor]

And lets not forget that Matt Santos, the candidate designed to appeal most to the liberal audience of the show, explicitly believes in God, and intelligent design, and privately expresses to Leo that he opposes abortion.