Senate Resolution Calling for a Constitutional Convention (Debate open)

[HappyWarrior]

Or neither.

[ilikeverin]

Or neither.

No.  The status quo is unacceptable, and everyone would vote for "neither" simply because it's the default.

[Purple State]

Or neither.

No.  The status quo is unacceptable, and everyone would vote for "neither" simply because it's the default.

Why can't both exist? I think the regional level is definitely a fundamental level of Atlasia (and a great place to start climbing the ladder). At the same time, you can't remove the federal level  because it is needed for general law making and as a way to bring laws more generally. It also frees up spots in the regions. I would think there just needs to be some more intermixing between the two levels.

[Franzl]

Or neither.

No.  The status quo is unacceptable, and everyone would vote for "neither" simply because it's the default.

Why can't both exist? I think the regional level is definitely a fundamental level of Atlasia (and a great place to start climbing the ladder). At the same time, you can't remove the federal level  because it is needed for general law making and as a way to bring laws more generally. It also frees up spots in the regions. I would think there just needs to be some more intermixing between the two levels.

I agree....they need to be better coordinated, but both play their parts in Atlasia.

[Purple State]

The only issue is that the regionalists (I'm talking to you RPP) and all those proponents of the federal government will both have to give up on some of their major points. The region cannot have ultimate power over the federal government, but the fed can't be beyond the reach of the regions. There is currently a lot of discussion on this in the DA Convention.

[ilikeverin]

Or neither.

No.  The status quo is unacceptable, and everyone would vote for "neither" simply because it's the default.

Why can't both exist? I think the regional level is definitely a fundamental level of Atlasia (and a great place to start climbing the ladder). At the same time, you can't remove the federal level  because it is needed for general law making and as a way to bring laws more generally.

Right now, regions are just dead weights of pointlessness (with the exception of the Midwest o/c) where nothing of real merit is ever accomplished.  Abolishing the national government would force activity and things of real import to happen in the regions, not to mention adding a level of foreign policy that essentially does not exist at the moment.  However, barring that, I think that regions as we know them should be utterly abolished, so that someday we could actually have competitive elections at the federal level.

[Purple State]

I was thinking a little about this and how about a Parliamentary system of sorts:

President (popular vote)

Parliament (5 members, all elected by regions)

Premier (Internal leader of Parliament, elected by MPs)

Laws must be passed by Parliament by a majority vote. The Premier can then accept the bill and pass it along to the President or refuse to pass it along. If it is passed to the President, he can accept it into law or veto it. If it is not passed along, the Parliament can overturn it by a two-thirds vote. If it is vetoed by the President, the Parliament can call for a public referendum by a two-thirds vote, requiring all regions to put it up to a vote. It would require a majority vote in a majority of regions. If both the Premier refuses to pass it along, it is overruled, and the President vetoes it, the bill dies automatically.

I'll try to make a diagram to make it clearer:

Bill --> Parl does not pass --> Bill dies

Bill --> Parl passes by majority --> Premier passes --> Pres signs --> Law

Bill --> Parl passes by majority --> Premier blocks --> Parl overrides by two-thirds --> Pres signs --> Law

Bill --> Parl passes by majority --> Premier blocks --> Parl overrides by two-thirds --> Pres vetoes --> Bill dies

Bill --> Parl passes by majority --> Premier passes --> Pres vetoes --> Parl overrides --> Public referendum to the regions, passes with majority vote in majority of regions --> Law


This solves a few problems.

First, the reason federal elections aren't competitive are because there are so many seats and appointed positions. Cut the positions, more competitive.

Second, you involve the regions and the public more in the decision making. MPs are responsible to their regional constituencies and public referendums create more popular participation. At the same time, the President does hold considerable veto power, able to at least force all bills to public referendum.

This probably has something for everyone to hate, but it is a damn good compromise. Any thoughts?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I'm fine with that suggestion provided that the President retains all of the powers he has now. Basically, the Premier would be a PPT with veto power.

[Purple State]

     I'm fine with that suggestion provided that the President retains all of the powers he has now. Basically, the Premier would be a PPT with veto power.

Essentially, yes. But I have a feeling that would put a great deal more meaning to the decision in picking a PPT. At the moment it is like a giveaway job that people take begrudgingly. This would turn every position into a more meaningful, more contested, and more worthy job.

The President would keep the ability to appoint a Cabinet and all that. There would just be more action before and after a veto, essentially making a more active, exciting, and compromising government.

[SPC]

I was thinking a little about this and how about a Parliamentary system of sorts:

President (popular vote)

Parliament (5 members, all elected by regions)

Premier (Internal leader of Parliament, elected by MPs)

Laws must be passed by Parliament by a majority vote. The Premier can then accept the bill and pass it along to the President or refuse to pass it along. If it is passed to the President, he can accept it into law or veto it. If it is not passed along, the Parliament can overturn it by a two-thirds vote. If it is vetoed by the President, the Parliament can call for a public referendum by a two-thirds vote, requiring all regions to put it up to a vote. It would require a majority vote in a majority of regions. If both the Premier refuses to pass it along, it is overruled, and the President vetoes it, the bill dies automatically.

I'll try to make a diagram to make it clearer:

Bill --> Parl does not pass --> Bill dies

Bill --> Parl passes by majority --> Premier passes --> Pres signs --> Law

Bill --> Parl passes by majority --> Premier blocks --> Parl overrides by two-thirds --> Pres signs --> Law

Bill --> Parl passes by majority --> Premier blocks --> Parl overrides by two-thirds --> Pres vetoes --> Bill dies

Bill --> Parl passes by majority --> Premier passes --> Pres vetoes --> Parl overrides --> Public referendum to the regions, passes with majority vote in majority of regions --> Law


This solves a few problems.

First, the reason federal elections aren't competitive are because there are so many seats and appointed positions. Cut the positions, more competitive.

Second, you involve the regions and the public more in the decision making. MPs are responsible to their regional constituencies and public referendums create more popular participation. At the same time, the President does hold considerable veto power, able to at least force all bills to public referendum.

This probably has something for everyone to hate, but it is a damn good compromise. Any thoughts?

I like this idea, so long as you replace "Parliament" with "Senate". I would like to have a Council of Governors in addition, though.

[Purple State]

I like this idea, so long as you replace "Parliament" with "Senate". I would like to have a Council of Governors in addition, though.

It can be called Senate. I'm not particularly obsessed with the names. However, a CoG I think would only add more roadblocks to any legislation. I think once something has the ability to go to the people through referendum, there is less of a need for a CoG. Plus, the entire Senate/Parliament is regional already. How much regional influence can be needed? You have to give some to gain some.

[afleitch]

I like this idea, so long as you replace "Parliament" with "Senate". I would like to have a Council of Governors in addition, though.

It can be called Senate. I'm not particularly obsessed with the names. However, a CoG I think would only add more roadblocks to any legislation. I think once something has the ability to go to the people through referendum, there is less of a need for a CoG. Plus, the entire Senate/Parliament is regional already. How much regional influence can be needed? You have to give some to gain some.

Shouts from the public gallery

I think that is a fair point and a fair system. I do not see what a CoG would achieve. I would prefer Governors to pay attention to their own region, rather than have to split their time. Some Governors with 'grand ambitions' may end up paying more attention to a federal Council than to their own region and citizens.

[SPC]

I like this idea, so long as you replace "Parliament" with "Senate". I would like to have a Council of Governors in addition, though.

It can be called Senate. I'm not particularly obsessed with the names. However, a CoG I think would only add more roadblocks to any legislation. I think once something has the ability to go to the people through referendum, there is less of a need for a CoG. Plus, the entire Senate/Parliament is regional already. How much regional influence can be needed? You have to give some to gain some.

Well, perhaps we could replace the referendum step with the CoG. I'm just throwing out ideas, though.

[Purple State]

I like this idea, so long as you replace "Parliament" with "Senate". I would like to have a Council of Governors in addition, though.

It can be called Senate. I'm not particularly obsessed with the names. However, a CoG I think would only add more roadblocks to any legislation. I think once something has the ability to go to the people through referendum, there is less of a need for a CoG. Plus, the entire Senate/Parliament is regional already. How much regional influence can be needed? You have to give some to gain some.

Well, perhaps we could replace the referendum step with the CoG. I'm just throwing out ideas, though.

Oh come now. An RPP member more concerned with the leaders of the regions than the people of the regions? ;-)

I think a CoG was a good patch for the current mess that Atlasia is in, but in the event that we reform the Constitution completely, the above proposal goes in and actually fixes the problem. I think the balance here is pretty good for federal, regional, and popular powers. Everyone gets a say, everyone has a check.

[SPC]

I like this idea, so long as you replace "Parliament" with "Senate". I would like to have a Council of Governors in addition, though.

It can be called Senate. I'm not particularly obsessed with the names. However, a CoG I think would only add more roadblocks to any legislation. I think once something has the ability to go to the people through referendum, there is less of a need for a CoG. Plus, the entire Senate/Parliament is regional already. How much regional influence can be needed? You have to give some to gain some.

Well, perhaps we could replace the referendum step with the CoG. I'm just throwing out ideas, though.

Oh come now. An RPP member more concerned with the leaders of the regions than the people of the regions? ;-)

I think a CoG was a good patch for the current mess that Atlasia is in, but in the event that we reform the Constitution completely, the above proposal goes in and actually fixes the problem. I think the balance here is pretty good for federal, regional, and popular powers. Everyone gets a say, everyone has a check.

As I said, I was just putting ideas out there.

[Purple State]

I like this idea, so long as you replace "Parliament" with "Senate". I would like to have a Council of Governors in addition, though.

It can be called Senate. I'm not particularly obsessed with the names. However, a CoG I think would only add more roadblocks to any legislation. I think once something has the ability to go to the people through referendum, there is less of a need for a CoG. Plus, the entire Senate/Parliament is regional already. How much regional influence can be needed? You have to give some to gain some.

Well, perhaps we could replace the referendum step with the CoG. I'm just throwing out ideas, though.

Oh come now. An RPP member more concerned with the leaders of the regions than the people of the regions? ;-)

I think a CoG was a good patch for the current mess that Atlasia is in, but in the event that we reform the Constitution completely, the above proposal goes in and actually fixes the problem. I think the balance here is pretty good for federal, regional, and popular powers. Everyone gets a say, everyone has a check.

As I said, I was just putting ideas out there.

Oh, no disrespect. I was just providing my rationale. Keep throwing ideas out there.

When will real action on a Convention take place? Debate has been open for a while and this should get started as soon as possible.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I may withdraw the Gubernatorial Amendment. This close to the convention, it might not be worth it to propose a Constitutional amendment anyway.

[DownWithTheLeft]

    I may withdraw the Gubernatorial Amendment. This close to the convention, it might not be worth it to propose a Constitutional amendment anyway.

Do not.  There is a chance the constitution could fail at a final vote, just as the 3rd constitution did

[Purple State]

Is anyone willing to bring my proposal as an Amendment to the floor? I think it will more viable than the Gubernatorial Amendment in the regional vote. I can write it up as legislation and hand it over if someone is willing to sponsor it.

[SPC]

Is anyone willing to bring my proposal as an Amendment to the floor? I think it will more viable than the Gubernatorial Amendment in the regional vote. I can write it up as legislation and hand it over if someone is willing to sponsor it.

I will gladly sponsor it, and ensure it is the first new legislation to make the floor.

[Purple State]

Warning: This gets long.


Federal Government Restructuring Amendment

1. Article I, Section 1 of the Constitution is amended to read: "The Senate shall be composed of five Senators, each with a term of four months. Senators shall be elected from each Region, respectively."

2. Article I, Section 3 of the Constitution is hereby repealed.

3. Article I, Section 4 of the Constitution is amended to read: "The Senate shall choose their other officers, and also appoint a President of the Senate internally to be vested with powers determined by this Constitution and Senate rules and proceedings."

4. Article I, Section 3, Clause 3 is amended to read: "For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Senate, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the Premier of the Senate, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of the Senate. If the Premier approves, he shall sign it, and it shall be passed to the President of the Republic of Atlasia. If the Premier does not approve, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Senate, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if the Senate shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall be presented to the President. If the President approves, he shall sign it, and it shall become Law. If the President does not approve, and the Bill does not have the signature of the Premier, it shall not become Law. If the President does not approve, and the Bill has the signature of the Premier, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Senate, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if the Senate shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall be presented to the people by way of public referendum. The Bill shall become Law upon approval by a majority of the People voting in public polls in a majority of the Regions. Such votes shall last for exactly five days and shall be administered by the Governor of the Region or other officer as the Law of the Region may provide. Citizens will cast their vote by public post. If a Bill is not returned to the Senate by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless."

5. Article I, Section 4, Clause 1 of the Constitution is hereby repealed.

6. Article I, Section 4, Clause 2 of the Constitution is amended to read: "Elections for the seats of the Senate shall be held in the months of February, June and October."

7. Article I, Section 4, Clause 4 of the Constitution is amended to read: "If a vacancy shall occur in a Senate seat, then the Governor of that Region shall appoint a person to fill the remainder of that term."

8. Article I, Section 4, Clause 5 of the Constitution is hereby repealed.

9. Article II, Section I, Clause 1 of the Constitution is amended to read: "The executive power shall be vested in the President of the Republic of Atlasia. He shall be elected for a term of approximately four months."

10. Article II, Section I, Clause 2 of the Constitution is amended to read: "No person shall be President who has not attained 250 or more posts, and is not a registered voter."

11. Article II, Section 2, Clause 3 of the Constitution is amended to read: "The President shall take office at noon Eastern Standard Time on the first Friday in the month after their election."

12. Article II, Section 3 is hereby renamed: "Vacancy and Incapacity of the Presidency"

13. Article II, Section 3, Clause 1 of the Constitution is amended to read: "If the Presidency shall ever fall vacant, the President of the Senate shall become President. If the Presidency of the Senate is also vacant, then the Senate shall elect one of its members as President of the Senate to fill the office of the President of the Republic of Atlasia. The Senate shall provide for a special election to the presidency within one month of the office's vacancy."

14. Article II, Section 3, Clause 2 of the Constitution is hereby repealed.

15. Article II, Section 3, Clause 3 of the Constitution is amended to read: "No person shall be elected to the office of President more than twice consecutively."

16. Article II, Section 3, Clause 4 of the Constitution is amended to read: "Whenever the President transmits to the Senate his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the President of the Senate as Acting President."

17. Article II, Section 3, Clause 5 of the Constitution is amended to read: "Whenever the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Atlasia and a two-thirds majority of the Senate sign a declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the President of the Senate shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President. Thereafter the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office upon his declaration that he is capable of discharging the said powers and duties, or when the Chief Justice and Senate annul their previous declaration."

18. All Amendments and Statutes currently governing the office of the Vice President are hereby void insofar as they relate to that office.

19. All Amendments and Statutes currently governing the office of the President pro tempore are amended to replace all instances of "President pro tempore" with "President of the Senate."


There it is. I believe I covered all instances in the Constitution that must be addressed. Is there anywhere else I should post this or will you take it from here?

[SPC]

Warning: This gets long.


Federal Government Restructuring Amendment

1. Article I, Section 1 of the Constitution is amended to read: "The Senate shall be composed of five Senators, each with a term of four months. Senators shall be elected from each Region, respectively."

2. Article I, Section 3 of the Constitution is hereby repealed.

3. Article I, Section 4 of the Constitution is amended to read: "The Senate shall choose their other officers, and also appoint a President of the Senate internally to be vested with powers determined by this Constitution and Senate rules and proceedings."

4. Article I, Section 3, Clause 3 is amended to read: "For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Senate, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the Premier of the Senate, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of the Senate. If the Premier approves, he shall sign it, and it shall be passed to the President of the Republic of Atlasia. If the Premier does not approve, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Senate, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if the Senate shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall be presented to the President. If the President approves, he shall sign it, and it shall become Law. If the President does not approve, and the Bill does not have the signature of the Premier, it shall not become Law. If the President does not approve, and the Bill has the signature of the Premier, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Senate, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if the Senate shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall be presented to the people by way of public referendum. The Bill shall become Law upon approval by a majority of the People voting in public polls in a majority of the Regions. Such votes shall last for exactly five days and shall be administered by the Governor of the Region or other officer as the Law of the Region may provide. Citizens will cast their vote by public post. If a Bill is not returned to the Senate by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless."

5. Article I, Section 4, Clause 1 of the Constitution is hereby repealed.

6. Article I, Section 4, Clause 2 of the Constitution is amended to read: "Elections for the seats of the Senate shall be held in the months of February, June and October."

7. Article I, Section 4, Clause 4 of the Constitution is amended to read: "If a vacancy shall occur in a Senate seat, then the Governor of that Region shall appoint a person to fill the remainder of that term."

8. Article I, Section 4, Clause 5 of the Constitution is hereby repealed.

9. Article II, Section I, Clause 1 of the Constitution is amended to read: "The executive power shall be vested in the President of the Republic of Atlasia. He shall be elected for a term of approximately four months."

10. Article II, Section I, Clause 2 of the Constitution is amended to read: "No person shall be President who has not attained 250 or more posts, and is not a registered voter."

11. Article II, Section 2, Clause 3 of the Constitution is amended to read: "The President shall take office at noon Eastern Standard Time on the first Friday in the month after their election."

12. Article II, Section 3 is hereby renamed: "Vacancy and Incapacity of the Presidency"

13. Article II, Section 3, Clause 1 of the Constitution is amended to read: "If the Presidency shall ever fall vacant, the President of the Senate shall become President. If the Presidency of the Senate is also vacant, then the Senate shall elect one of its members as President of the Senate to fill the office of the President of the Republic of Atlasia. The Senate shall provide for a special election to the presidency within one month of the office's vacancy."

14. Article II, Section 3, Clause 2 of the Constitution is hereby repealed.

15. Article II, Section 3, Clause 3 of the Constitution is amended to read: "No person shall be elected to the office of President more than twice consecutively."

16. Article II, Section 3, Clause 4 of the Constitution is amended to read: "Whenever the President transmits to the Senate his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the President of the Senate as Acting President."

17. Article II, Section 3, Clause 5 of the Constitution is amended to read: "Whenever the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Atlasia and a two-thirds majority of the Senate sign a declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the President of the Senate shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President. Thereafter the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office upon his declaration that he is capable of discharging the said powers and duties, or when the Chief Justice and Senate annul their previous declaration."

18. All Amendments and Statutes currently governing the office of the Vice President are hereby void insofar as they relate to that office.

19. All Amendments and Statutes currently governing the office of the President pro tempore are amended to replace all instances of "President pro tempore" with "President of the Senate."


There it is. I believe I covered all instances in the Constitution that must be addressed. Is there anywhere else I should post this or will you take it from here?

Oh, I already posted my own version in the Legislation Introduction Thread, pg. 32. I'll replace it with this longer version if you want, though.

[ilikeverin]

What is a non-Senator doing in this thread, rambling on like that?  Shoo!  Shoo!  The Broom of Justice is back in session!

[Purple State]

And here I was thinking I was being original. Oh well, I do like the longer version better. Feels more comprehensive. Your call.

What is a non-Senator doing in this thread, rambling on like that?  Shoo!  Shoo!  The Broom of Justice is back in session!

Ouch, don't be bitter. :-P

[SPC]

And here I was thinking I was being original. Oh well, I do like the longer version better. Feels more comprehensive. Your call.

What is a non-Senator doing in this thread, rambling on like that?  Shoo!  Shoo!  The Broom of Justice is back in session!

Ouch, don't be bitter. :-P

For now, I'll just stick with my version, but I might amend it to be your version once it reaches the floor. And you weren't being unoriginal, I just editing my earlier post so that your legislation would get looked at before the rest of mine. You'll notice that I edited it today.