Israeli Airstrikes on Gaza

[Јas]

Big surprise! It turns out we can't trust the Palestinians to provide an accurate death toll:

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The IDF estimate fatalities at between 1,100-1,200.
Do you accuse the Israelis of not being trustworthy enough to provide an accurate death toll either?

[Daniel Adams]

Big surprise! It turns out we can't trust the Palestinians to provide an accurate death toll:

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The IDF estimate fatalities at between 1,100-1,200.
Do you accuse the Israelis of not being trustworthy enough to provide an accurate death toll either?

The IDF (unlike the US military in Iraq) constantly updated the body count during the war, which may have inflated their death toll estimate.

In any case, the doctor's statement that "most of them [the dead] are youths between the ages of 17 to 23 who were recruited to the ranks of Hamas" buttresses the Israeli claim that only a third of the dead were civilians.

[Јas]

I'd much rather they fight them in the courts instead launching more rocket attacks at civilians. 


Maybe they could boycot Jewish goods next?  Sit Ins?  Go on strike?  Something peacefull so Israel doesn't have an excuse to blow them up again.  Their methods up until now have been pretty freaking stupid.

The methods you propose would not be effective or even noticed.

Like it or not, the methods Hamas employ gain them international attention. Getting Israel to engage in blowing stuff up is sometimes exactly what Hamas want. It generates significant sympathy and support for Palestinian extremists when Israel pulls the trigger and hundreds of innocents suffer.

Exactly.  Which is why I find it so weird that people actually want them to "win" here and totally ignore the atrocities committed by Hamas.

Who here wants them to win?

The coincidence of an Israeli Government in need of a poll boost coming up to new elections,

Except the last time Israel took action against this kind of thing, the people were very displeased with it.

Different circumstances.
Particularly, IMO, significant numbers of fatalities and casualties to Israeli soldiers and citizens and the failure to destroy Hezbollah stand out against the Government in Israeli public opinion.

[dead0man]

And they knew this one would be quick and easy.  Amazing kill:death ratio.

As for who wants who to win, what outcome would you like to see out of this immediate situation here?  Egypt and Israel are not going to fling open the borders and let anybody bring whatever they want into Gaza, it's just not going to happen.  Some third party needs to come in, set up on the Gaza end of the checkpoints and do the searching.  Then bring in every legal thing they want.  For some reason, that probably won't happen.

[Јas]

Big surprise! It turns out we can't trust the Palestinians to provide an accurate death toll:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The IDF estimate fatalities at between 1,100-1,200.
Do you accuse the Israelis of not being trustworthy enough to provide an accurate death toll either?

The IDF (unlike the US military in Iraq) constantly updated the body count during the war, which may have inflated their death toll estimate.

And yet, the IDF have not yet changed the estimates of the number of fatalities.
Nor, for that matter, have either the UN or the Red Cross done so.

It's interesting that a single report from a single anonymous source that hasn't yet been given credence by any international state or body is sufficient to prove to you that the Palestinians are liars and that Israel are honestly mistaken.

In any case, the doctor's statement that "most of them [the dead] are youths between the ages of 17 to 23 who were recruited to the ranks of Hamas" buttresses the Israeli claim that only a third of the dead were civilians.

The fact that you use that you think that as 'only' ¹/₃ of the dead are civilians is, IMO, deeply disturbing. How high would the proportion of civilian dead have to be to cause you some concern?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The fact that you use that you think that as 'only' ¹/₃ of the dead are civilians is, IMO, deeply disturbing. How high would the proportion of civilian dead have to be to cause you some concern?

I don't know as high as the proportion of civilians among the deaths caused by the IRA maybe?

[Јas]

The fact that you use that you think that as 'only' ¹/₃ of the dead are civilians is, IMO, deeply disturbing. How high would the proportion of civilian dead have to be to cause you some concern?

I don't know as high as the proportion of civilians among the deaths caused by the IRA maybe?

[Јas]

As for who wants who to win, what outcome would you like to see out of this immediate situation here?  Egypt and Israel are not going to fling open the borders and let anybody bring whatever they want into Gaza, it's just not going to happen.  Some third party needs to come in, set up on the Gaza end of the checkpoints and do the searching.  Then bring in every legal thing they want.  For some reason, that probably won't happen.

I don't have a problem with any of that. My primary concern is simply that, as much as possible, the dignity and human rights of innocent by-standers is respected - measured principally against the generally accepted norms of international law.

[dead0man]

Yes, and I wish human rights groups would apply that concern to both sides and act accordingly.

[JohnFKennedy]

Yes, and I wish human rights groups would apply that concern to both sides and act accordingly.

Some do. A quick search on the Amnesty International website seems to suggest that they have also repeatedly denounced Hamas and Fatah's military actions.

On white phosphorus - having inspected the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, it would seem that Israel (and the United States) are not signatories to Protocol III which governs incendiary weapons so even if white phosphorus is outlawed by it then it is irrelevant as Israel is not governed by it. I will limit my objections, therefore, to the realms of morality rather than legality (and the same is true of Hamas fighters dressing as civilians).

On the death toll given by a doctor cited by Daniel Adams, I would echo Jas' questioning and also point out that the same website cites UN and International Red Cross estimates at being around 1,300 dead and 5,000 injured. Personally I would view those figures as being more likely to be reliable than Palestinian figures or Hamas figures.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The fact that you use that you think that as 'only' ¹/₃ of the dead are civilians is, IMO, deeply disturbing. How high would the proportion of civilian dead have to be to cause you some concern?

I don't know as high as the proportion of civilians among the deaths caused by the IRA maybe?

I'm making the point about the inanity of that post coming from an IRA supporter.

[Јas]

The fact that you use that you think that as 'only' ¹/₃ of the dead are civilians is, IMO, deeply disturbing. How high would the proportion of civilian dead have to be to cause you some concern?

I don't know as high as the proportion of civilians among the deaths caused by the IRA maybe?

I'm making the point about the inanity of that post coming from an IRA supporter.

I recall questioning your logical consistency in opposing the IRA while supporting other similar groups elsewhere - but I do not, and never have, supported the IRA.

[Silent Hunter]

Major row over the BBC deciding not to broadcast a DEC appeal over Gaza.