Was the Holodomor a "genocide"?

[dead0man]

wiki article on the subject

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So, is it just more craziness from Stalin?  Or just more proof that totalitarian socialist states are the most dangerous thing to mankind?

My guess is that the fault lies with the natural shortcomings of socialism.

[Meeker]

Absolutely.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Not in the actual meaning of the word.

[Јas]

My guess is that the fault lies with the natural shortcomings of socialism.

I strongly disagree. The problem isn't with socialism.

"The Irish People are expecting famine day by day... and they ascribe it unanimously, not so much to the rule of heaven as to the greedy and cruel policy of England. Be that right or wrong, that is their feeling. They believe that the season as they roll are but ministers of England’s rapacity; that their starving children cannot sit down to their scanty meal but they see the harpy claw of England in their dish. They behold their own wretched food melting in rottenness off the face of the earth, and they see heavy-laden ships, freighted with the yellow corn their own hands have sown and reaped, spreading all sail for England; they see it and with every grain of that corn goes a heavy curse. Again the people believe—no matter whether truly or falsely—that if they should escape the hunger and the fever their lives are not safe from judges and juries. They do not look upon the law of the land as a terror to evil-doers, and a praise to those who do well; they scowl on it as an engine of foreign rule, ill-omened harbinger of doom." -- John Mitchell, 1846

[dead0man]

So it's not socialism that's the problem, it's when socialism is forced on a people by outsiders that's the problem?

[Јas]

So it's not socialism that's the problem, it's when socialism is forced on a people by outsiders that's the problem?

If one ascribes the Holdomor to socialism, is it not reasonable to ascribe the Irish famine to capitalism?

[dead0man]

Except Soviet Russia WAS Socialist.  Mid 19th century Ireland was certainly not capitalist.  At least not as far as the peasentry was concerned.  Capitalism for 10% and serfdom for the other 90% isn't capitalism.

[GMantis]

Soviet rule was more state capitalism than socialism and in both the Irish famine and the Holodomor one of the main reasons the complete indifference of the State to what happened with the people.
I don't think it was genocide against a nation, as it affected many other parts of the USSR - most prominently Russia and Kazakhstan. It can best be described as a combination of complete indifference and a desire to destroy the more independent farmers.

[dead0man]

State Capitalism

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I don't know if I've ever run across that term before.  Odd.  Still, just lipstick on a pig

And I agree, it was mostly indifference that caused both tragedies.  There was a little malice thrown in from Moscow though.  The state wasn't taking potatoes at gun point in Ireland where they?  Still, not genocide.  The Turks and Germans have set that bar pretty high.

[Јas]

The state wasn't taking potatoes at gun point in Ireland where they?

Not potatoes, but plenty of other food. Ireland was a net exporter of food throughout the famine and yes, much of it had to be done under guard.

[GMantis]

The main controversy about this is that some Ukrainians allege that this was a deliberate genocide to destroy the Ukrainian nation, which is countered by the Russians by pointing out that wide areas in Russia and Kazakhstan.

[Earth]

I agree that it was genocide, but the notion that it was due to socialism exclusively is wrong, in my opinion. The soviet brand of authoritarianism/authoritarian communism is not representative of the whole of leftist policies.

[dead0man]

Agreed.  My blanket condemnation of socialism in this case was unfounded.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

The state wasn't taking potatoes at gun point in Ireland where they?

Not potatoes, but plenty of other food. Ireland was a net exporter of food throughout the famine and yes, much of it had to be done under guard.

Almost exactly what I was going to say.

[Хahar 🤔]

No, not in any real sense.

[??????????]

It's not genocide when soviets kill tens of millions. [/gmantis]

[Governor PiT]

Yes, a group of people were targeted ethnicially for genocide.


Look up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_Kaganovich

[Governor PiT]

Beginning
Kaganovich was born in 1893 to Jewish parents in the village of Kabany, Radomyshl uyezd, Kiev Gubernia, Russian Empire (now in Ukraine). For most of his life,[clarification needed] he was an atheist. Early in his political career, in 1915, Kaganovich worked as a Communist organizer in a shoe factory. This served as the basis for the claim that Kaganovich never received a formal education, and worked in a shoe factory, or as cobbler and shoemaker. Kaganovich was the son of a cattle dealer, and both he and his brother, Mikhail, attended Gymnasia[citation needed].

In 1911, he joined the Bolshevik party (following his older brother Mikhail Kaganovich who was already a member). Later in 1915, Kaganovich was arrested and sent back to Kabany. In March-April 1917, he was the Chairman of the Tanners Union and the vice-chairman of the Yuzovka Soviet. In May 1917, he became the leader of the military organization of Bolsheviks in Saratov, and in August 1917, he became the leader of the Polessky Committee of the Bolshevik party in Belarus. During the October Revolution, he was the leader of the revolt in Gomel.








Responsibility for Holodomor
 
Poster accusing Kaganovich of genocide. November 20, 1999 memorial service in New York City honoring "the memory of those who perished in the genocide-famine of 1932-33 in Ukraine". The exact number of deaths is hotly argued. See Holodomor article for details.Kaganovich (together with Vyacheslav Molotov) took part in the All-Ukrainian Party Conference of 1930 and actively encouraged the policies of collectivization that according to many historians led to the catastrophic 1932-33 Ukrainian famine (the Holodomor), in which millions of Ukrainians died. Similar policies also inflicted enormous suffering on the Soviet Central Asian republic of Kazakhstan, the Kuban region, Crimea, the lower Volga region, and other parts of the Soviet Union. As an emissary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party, Kaganovich traveled to Ukraine, the Central region of Russia, the Northern Caucasus, and Siberia demanding the acceleration of collectivization and repressions against the kulaks, who were generally used as scapegoats for the slow progress of collectivization, and their supporters. In his book, The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivisation and the Terror-Famine, Robert Conquest named Kaganovich together with Molotov, Pavel Postyshev, and other Stalinist leaders of the USSR as having personal responsibility for the artificial famine [2].

[Хahar 🤔]

It's not genocide when soviets kill tens of millions. [/gmantis]

That was mass murder, not genocide.

[GMantis]

It's not genocide when soviets kill tens of millions. [/gmantis]

I don't think that the Irish famine was a genocide, though the circumstances were quite similar. I'm not a Soviet cheerleader. I've always condemned their crimes:
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=82911.msg1717904#msg1717904
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=87638.msg1803624#msg1803624
I don't remember you condeming your heroes for any of their crimes.
Of course, if not being a raving Russophobe makes one a Soviet cheerleader, then I'm certainly one.

[Governor PiT]

It's not genocide when soviets kill tens of millions. [/gmantis]

That was mass murder, not genocide.

Can you prove ethnic hatred was not a motivation?

[Хahar 🤔]

It's not genocide when soviets kill tens of millions. [/gmantis]

That was mass murder, not genocide.

Can you prove ethnic hatred was not a motivation?

Stalin wasn't exactly kind to Georgians.