Kerry’s big problem
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Author Topic: Kerry’s big problem  (Read 1674 times)
Shira
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« on: September 21, 2004, 03:19:09 PM »
« edited: September 21, 2004, 10:32:44 PM by Shira »

The Iraq saga is not too complicated.
Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and other neo-cons were obsessed with Iraq long before 9/11 and before Bush came to office. Iraq was very attractive to them and the real goal was to ‘convert’ Iraq into a friendly country like Kuwait (and even more) that is controlled by the American oil companies.

When the war started, Kennedy strongly and explicitly expressed his strong opposition. He knew very well what the real reason for the war was.
The sad thing is that Kerry’s real views are exactly the Kennedy’s views. The advantage of Kennedy, however, is that he does not run for presidency, so he has the luxury to exactly express  his real views.
Kerry was poorly advised (by Biden??) that if he wants to run for presidency he should express more ‘common’ views about Iraq. Kerry is an honest man, so for him (as oppose to Bush) it was very hard to become a spinner and he  failed performing this role.
Bush’s world is limited and simplistic. He does not have any real view on any issue. Because of his likeability, he was picked by the neo-cons  to be the virtual president. Another advantage of Bush is that unlike Kerry, he was not a senator whose views are exposed, but rather a governor who can conceal and befog his views and be successful in  misleading  the American voters.
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A18
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« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2004, 03:46:32 PM »

You forgot to post the real reason for the Civil War, Shira.

Lincoln, Grant, and the other neolibs were obsessed with Texas long before the confederacy ever formed.

Texas was very attractive to them and the real goal of the North was to 'convert' Texas into a friendly state like Kuwait (which didn't exist at the time) that would be controlled by the Northern oil companies!!

Good thing Jefferson Davis knew what the REAL reason for war was! LINCOLN LIED! DAVIS WAS JUST TOO HONEST TO TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT HE THOUGHT, AS OPPOSED TO THAT SPINNER LINCOLN!!!

NO WAR FOR TEXAN OIL!!!!!!!
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Shira
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« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2004, 04:00:12 PM »
« Edited: September 21, 2004, 10:34:03 PM by Shira »

So, what do you think is the real reason for the war in Iraq?
WMD?
9/11?
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A18
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« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2004, 04:07:19 PM »

Yet I live in the south, and I don't see any slaves. Clearly they never existed. So what do you think was the real reason for the war in the South?

WMDs and 9/11. Duh.
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Lunar
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« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2004, 04:58:42 PM »

So, what do you[/] think is the real reason for the war in Iraq?
WMD?
9/11?

Go back to ANY of your previous threads on the subject.
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mddem2004
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« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2004, 07:44:22 PM »

Actually Shira has a point but it is'nt the whole story.

The "Oil Thing".....
Lets face it, a big part of our "National Interest" in Iraq is their oil. You can't ignore the second largest untapped oil reserve in the world while being the world's biggest dependent on foreign oil.

But it is'nt about 'controlling' their oil, its about market access to their oil.

Point 1:
We were, pre-invasion / post 9/11, faced with this reality. The number one oil exported in the world, Saudi Arabia, has a violent and growing Islamic militancy movement. Osama and 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 are from Saudi Arabia. An 'unholy' status quo has existed between the Royal Saudi Family and Wahabi Islam for generations. There was (and is) the very real posibility that the Royal Family may one day go the way of the Shah of Iran. If that happens we would have both the 1st and 2nd largest known sources of oil potentially cut off from us. Our National Security, Economy and consumer driven way of life would not - could not permit that.

Point 2:
What is Osam'a biggest Beef with the US - in fact it was the driving principle behind the formation of Al Queda in the early-Mid 1990's?Huh?

The fact that we have a military presence on the Holiest land in Islam. We are Infidels in their eyes because of that, something few Americans can comprehend but it is very fundemental to their Religion - and hatred for us. And they view us as there to prop up a corrupt Saudi Regime that doesn't give a damn about using the vast wealth of Saudi Arabia for its people - just themselves.

Of course our real reason was for our military presence at Prince Sultan Air Base was the UN santioned No-Fly Zones.

Hence - A Very Real strategic consideration of the Bush Administration was:
1) If Iraq is toppled we don't have to worry about the No-Fly Zones and we can withdraw from Saudi Arabia, something already underway.

2) Under a friendly government, Iraq would serve as a 'Fail Safe' source of oil should Saudi Arabia's Royal Family fall.

And they thought - "And who could argue against getting rid of a bastard like Sadaam anyway"Huh?

There is one other consideration the Neo-Cons talked about yet you here so little about these days. That is the connection to our ally Israel and their interests.

Remember the talk from the Right (Weekly Standard particularly) of "The road to Jerusalam goes through Bagdad?" Well because Sadaam did fund Palestinian suicide bombers and Israel was concerned if sanctions were lifted on Iraq, they may one day have to bomb a  reconstituted Iraqi nuclear capacity as they did back in 1982. With Isreal locked (at the time) in a new Infatada, they wanted at least one of the sources of the financial support (Sadaam) to be taken out.

The problem with ALL these assumptions of course is they underestimated the potential for an Iraqi resistance, the reaction of the Arab world in general, and they completely failed to take into account Iraqi history.

The Turks from the days of the Ottoman Empire could not 'control' this area and largely left it alone to be ruled by the locals, nor could the British in the 1920's. Iraq's Suni', Shiha, and Kurd populations are a "Fake" nation..... clumped together by the British and called 'Iraq' after the Ottoman Empire fell in 1919. Iraq's disparate groups has since been held together largely by dictatorial rule. But it kept the separate factions from fighting.

Now it is our job to keep it together, yet I fear we have only created the conditions for Civil War in that country.
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Shira
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« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2004, 09:01:07 PM »
« Edited: September 21, 2004, 09:32:04 PM by Shira »

Actually Shira has a point but it is'nt the whole story.

The "Oil Thing".....
Lets face it, a big part of our "National Interest" in Iraq is their oil. You can't ignore the second largest untapped oil reserve in the world while being the world's biggest dependent on foreign oil.

. . . . . . . .



Wonderful.  Thank you.
From all the posts in this section, this was the best in-depth analysis of the real situation.
It is sad that the vast majority of Americans is not properly informed and is exposed to the Soviet-like propaganda of Cheney and Co.

As to Israel the absurd is that on the one hand the Religious Right is virtually pro Israel, but on the other hand they are concealed anti-Semites. Behind the soft talking of J.Fallwell there is a deep hatred and despise to Catholics, blacks, Jews and secular Protestants. (not to mention Moslems).

I know that many Israelis would strongly prefer an American president that would help Israel to escape from itself i.e. that will put a real pressure on Israel to get rid of the occupied territories. An Israeli friend of mine cited her father “I miss Jimmy Carter. He was the most beneficial President for Israel”. I assume that he referred to the heavy pressure that Carter put on Begin the PM of Israel to make peace with Egypt.      

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A18
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« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2004, 09:33:50 PM »

There are 50 American states fighting this war.

1,000 \ 50 = 20

So, all things being equal, you could expect about 20 people per state to have died from the war in Iraq. This is not how George Washington defined failure.

Compare that with the 100,000 U.S. deaths from traffic accidents every two years.

The natural order of hatred is to self-destruct, and given the opportunity, it will die with the generations.

Every person in this world who wants to kill us will die. You win through the unborn; it doesn't matter how much the living hate us. My suggestion is to enjoy it while they can.
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Shira
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« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2004, 09:46:58 PM »


Mr Nuisance, enough is enough.

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A18
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« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2004, 09:54:32 PM »

But how do I know how much enough is enough?
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Bogart
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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2004, 02:43:15 PM »

Actually Shira has a point but it is'nt the whole story.

The "Oil Thing".....
Lets face it, a big part of our "National Interest" in Iraq is their oil. You can't ignore the second largest untapped oil reserve in the world while being the world's biggest dependent on foreign oil.

But it is'nt about 'controlling' their oil, its about market access to their oil.

Point 1:
We were, pre-invasion / post 9/11, faced with this reality. The number one oil exported in the world, Saudi Arabia, has a violent and growing Islamic militancy movement. Osama and 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 are from Saudi Arabia. An 'unholy' status quo has existed between the Royal Saudi Family and Wahabi Islam for generations. There was (and is) the very real posibility that the Royal Family may one day go the way of the Shah of Iran. If that happens we would have both the 1st and 2nd largest known sources of oil potentially cut off from us. Our National Security, Economy and consumer driven way of life would not - could not permit that.

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