Should Words That Sound Like Offensivie Words...

[12th Doctor]

but are not, and have no relation to them be censured, condemned, or tossed out of the english language all together?

I am thinking most specifically of the word "ndly".  Discuss.

[ilikeverin]

ndly shouldn't be shunned or anything, but it is quite clearly on a trajectory towards being out-of-use; English always has plenty of synonyms, and there's no reason why "miserly" and such can't step forward.

[NDN]

Of course not.

[12th Doctor]

ndly shouldn't be shunned or anything, but it is quite clearly on a trajectory towards being out-of-use; English always has plenty of synonyms, and there's no reason why "miserly" and such can't step forward.

But why should it be on its way out?  If there is no intent to offend, then how can a word itself be bad?

[7,052,770]

I mean, why would you even say ndly anyway?  Never in my life have I ever needed to say that word...
Anyway, there's nothing *wrong* with saying it, but a lot of people are going to get the wrong idea, so it's smarter not to.

[ilikeverin]

ndly shouldn't be shunned or anything, but it is quite clearly on a trajectory towards being out-of-use; English always has plenty of synonyms, and there's no reason why "miserly" and such can't step forward.

But why should it be on its way out?  If there is no intent to offend, then how can a word itself be bad?

Huh?  I attached no value statement to the fact that ndly is going out of style, likely due to its confusion with the n-word.  It is going out of fashion; there is nothing we can do to stop this trend or accelerate it.

[12th Doctor]

ndly shouldn't be shunned or anything, but it is quite clearly on a trajectory towards being out-of-use; English always has plenty of synonyms, and there's no reason why "miserly" and such can't step forward.

But why should it be on its way out?  If there is no intent to offend, then how can a word itself be bad?

Huh?  I attached no value statement to the fact that ndly is going out of style, likely due to its confusion with the n-word.  It is going out of fashion; there is nothing we can do to stop this trend or accelerate it.

My mistake... when yu said "should be on its way" I thought that was a value statement.

[12th Doctor]

I mean, why would you even say ndly anyway?  Never in my life have I ever needed to say that word...
Anyway, there's nothing *wrong* with saying it, but a lot of people are going to get the wrong idea, so it's smarter not to.

There are other words, I just thought of that one as a prime example.  Also, usually the only people who have ever even heard of the word are ones who have very large vocabularies, and so I don't think it has anything to do with "smart".

For that matter, why have people been fired over "ndly" and no one cares about "nigga" which isn't going anywhere?

[12th Doctor]

And to be clear, people do insist that "n" and "nigga" aren't the same word, and thus it totally changes the connotation, making it okay.

[afleitch]

No.

But I can see instances of smart arses over using 'ndly' in day to day conversation to make a point that they really are racist and know it's socially unnaceptable to use the other word but can't be tripped up for using a gramatically correct term.

[12th Doctor]

No.

But I can see instances of smart arses over using 'ndly' in day to day conversation to make a point that they really are racist and know it's socially unnaceptable to use the other word but can't be tripped up for using a gramatically correct term.

That is the exact opposite of how it usually works in real life, though.

[12th Doctor]

Let's expand this topic further:

The original "Rule of Thumb" was that a husband was only permitted to beat his wife with a stick that was no thinker than his thumb.  Obviously, beating your wife with a stick (which is something that people ought to get incensed about) was common enough that the expression has grown to mean other things, and most people are totally unaware of it original meaning.  However, many feminists will go after people for using the expression because they find it offensive, due to its original connotation.

So, because it started out with what is now seen as a malicious intent (though actually, it was a law meant to help women), to mark the role of a patriarchal society and is a term of oppression, should people make their best effort to get rid of the term?  Are feminists right to be upset?

I, of course, say no.  I myself was once called a "pig" for using the term.

A similar term would be "Call a Spade a Spade."  Most people don't know, today, that what that term originally meant was "Call a n a n", since that is what the word "Spade" once commonly meant.  Again, people have been taken to the woodshed (irony fully intended) over using the term.

Should people care, or are people who are offended by these common expression looking for something to be offended about?

[12th Doctor]

And please, don't come bitching me out (more terrible irony with the terms) because of my use of the "n-word".  I never use it, except in a context such as this.

[afleitch]

No.

But I can see instances of smart arses over using 'ndly' in day to day conversation to make a point that they really are racist and know it's socially unnaceptable to use the other word but can't be tripped up for using a gramatically correct term.

That is the exact opposite of how it usually works in real life, though.

It's the same with the word f****t. Because you can buy f****ts as a food in a supermarket people often use that word in an almost 'sing song fashion' because they know they can. If you pull themselves up they say 'well it's a food isn't it?, i'm going to buy f****ts' Also similar to 'I'm off to Amsterdam to see the dykes.'

If you use dyke, f****t and ndly in passable context (which is rare for all three to use them in day to day speech anway) I can't see the problem.

[12th Doctor]

No.

But I can see instances of smart arses over using 'ndly' in day to day conversation to make a point that they really are racist and know it's socially unnaceptable to use the other word but can't be tripped up for using a gramatically correct term.

That is the exact opposite of how it usually works in real life, though.

It's the same with the word f****t. Because you can buy f****ts as a food in a supermarket people often use that word in an almost 'sing song fashion' because they know they can. If you pull themselves up they say 'well it's a food isn't it?, i'm going to buy f****ts' Also similar to 'I'm off to Amsterdam to see the dykes.'

If you use dyke, f****t and ndly in passable context (which is rare for all three to use them in day to day speech anway) I can't see the problem.

Those are all pretty rare examples.  Usually, the reason these debates come up is because a word is used in a very specific context, and is not that common.

[12th Doctor]

And in the US "f****t" has no punch anymore because it was actually adopted by the gay community.  And Heeb is the name of a Jewish interest magazine.

[Verily]

And in the US "f****t" has no punch anymore because it was actually adopted by the gay community.  And Heeb is the name of a Jewish interest magazine.

Um... really? No, not at all. f****t is still an incredibly insulting term, and to say it has been "adopted" is an incredible overstatement (similar to n four decades ago, maybe, and therefore in transition to the same weird status, but still definitely used to insult 95+% of the time).

The word ndly is dying out at least partially because of confusion (but also because the word stingy has become the preferred synonym independently). It is appropriate that words which are confusing in their meaning die out. After all, we would like our language to be as unlikely to be misunderstood as possible, regardless of whether such misunderstandings are insulting or just awkward.

[12th Doctor]

And in the US "f****t" has no punch anymore because it was actually adopted by the gay community.  And Heeb is the name of a Jewish interest magazine.

Um... really? No, not at all. f****t is still an incredibly insulting term, and to say it has been "adopted" is an incredible overstatement (similar to n four decades ago, maybe, and therefore in transition to the same weird status, but still definitely used to insult 95+% of the time).

The word ndly is dying out at least partially because of confusion (but also because the word stingy has become the preferred synonym independently). It is appropriate that words which are confusing in their meaning die out. After all, we would like our language to be as unlikely to be misunderstood as possible, regardless of whether such misunderstandings are insulting or just awkward.

Ummm... yes, actually, it has (along with "queer").  Its still offensive, but only when the intent the user is to be offensive, which is what gets to the heart of the discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/f****t_(slang)#Usage_in_popular_culture

There was a deliberate effort by many in the gay community to reclaim the word, going back the the 1980's and this is an historically documented fact.

[DownWithTheLeft]

Haha, remember those black people that thought the song White Christmas was racist?

[J. J.]

Farque no. 

[Verily]

And in the US "f****t" has no punch anymore because it was actually adopted by the gay community.  And Heeb is the name of a Jewish interest magazine.

Um... really? No, not at all. f****t is still an incredibly insulting term, and to say it has been "adopted" is an incredible overstatement (similar to n four decades ago, maybe, and therefore in transition to the same weird status, but still definitely used to insult 95+% of the time).

The word ndly is dying out at least partially because of confusion (but also because the word stingy has become the preferred synonym independently). It is appropriate that words which are confusing in their meaning die out. After all, we would like our language to be as unlikely to be misunderstood as possible, regardless of whether such misunderstandings are insulting or just awkward.

Ummm... yes, actually, it has (along with "queer").  Its still offensive, but only when the intent the user is to be offensive, which is what gets to the heart of the discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/f****t_(slang)#Usage_in_popular_culture

There was a deliberate effort by many in the gay community to reclaim the word, going back the the 1980's and this is an historically documented fact.

I'm not denying it, but you're equating the two usages. The "redeemed" usage is still very obscure, regardless of attempts by some gay persons to popularize it. The offensive usage is not.

Queer is a somewhat different case.

[ilikeverin]

The original "Rule of Thumb" was that a husband was only permitted to beat his wife with a stick that was no thinker than his thumb.  Obviously, beating your wife with a stick (which is something that people ought to get incensed about) was common enough that the expression has grown to mean other things, and most people are totally unaware of it original meaning.

Wrong.

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Wrong.  (Expanded debunking)

[Sam Spade]

Obviously, you know my opinion on this...

[??????????]

Obviously, you know my opinion on this...

About beating up on twelve year olds?

[dead0man]

The original "Rule of Thumb" was that a husband was only permitted to beat his wife with a stick that was no thinker than his thumb.  Obviously, beating your wife with a stick (which is something that people ought to get incensed about) was common enough that the expression has grown to mean other things, and most people are totally unaware of it original meaning.

Wrong.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Wrong.  (Expanded debunking)

Thank you!  I was going to do that, but you beat me to it.

I learned "ndly" in an English class in High School.  From a black lady even.  I never use it though.  I use "deft" all the time though.