Abkhazia...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Big independence rallies in Abkhazia today. Shown prominantly on Russian state TV apparently. Just thought I should mention that here.

[GMantis]

I'm not entirely certain that Russia will recognise either of the two republics even now. They seem to prefer to use them as a bargaining chip against the Georgians. They've hinted as much.

[GMantis]

The Russian parliament voted to recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia. However, this needs to be signed by Medvedev before becoming valid. Back in March there was a similar resolution, but the President refused to sign it. The times have changed, but I'm still not certain that Russia will recognize. It will set a bad example.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

This is a filthy disgusting state built on ethnic cleansing that should never receive any recognition and I'd be perfectly fine if their "Parliament" was just bombed. The Georgian majority should retake this disgusting monstrosity.

[Meeker]

This is a filthy disgusting state built on ethnic cleansing that should never receive any recognition and I'd be perfectly fine if their "Parliament" was just bombed. The Georgian majority should retake this disgusting monstrosity.

But tell us how you really feel.

[CultureKing]

This is a filthy disgusting state built on ethnic cleansing that should never receive any recognition and I'd be perfectly fine if their "Parliament" was just bombed. The Georgian majority should retake this disgusting monstrosity.

I agree, I heard something about how before Abkhazia rebelled with Russian assistance the region had a large Georgian majority. Basically the current area resulted from expelling Georgians and a Russian land grap.

[GMantis]

In fact the Georgians didn't have an absolute majority:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia#Demographics
The Abkhazians, Armenians and Russians outnumbered or nearly outnumbered them and most Armenians and Russians supported the Abkhazians and many joined in the fighting on their side(see here.)

[dead0man]

In fact the Georgians didn't have an absolute majority:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia#Demographics
The Abkhazians, Armenians and Russians outnumbered or nearly outnumbered them and most Armenians and Russians supported the Abkhazians and many joined in the fighting on their side(see here.)

Are you serious?  Wow.  I've seen people blinded by biases before, but this is crazy.

[GMantis]

In fact the Georgians didn't have an absolute majority:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia#Demographics
The Abkhazians, Armenians and Russians outnumbered or nearly outnumbered them and most Armenians and Russians supported the Abkhazians and many joined in the fighting on their side(see here.)

Are you serious?  Wow.  I've seen people blinded by biases before, but this is crazy.

What have I said that was crazy?!
I only reported on the demographic situation and said that most Armenians and Russians supported the Abkhazians. If you have information that contradicts the one I provided, please post it.

[Јas]

Medvedev decides to recognise Abkhazia and South Ossetia...
BBC Article

[dead0man]

In fact the Georgians didn't have an absolute majority:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia#Demographics
The Abkhazians, Armenians and Russians outnumbered or nearly outnumbered them and most Armenians and Russians supported the Abkhazians and many joined in the fighting on their side(see here.)

Are you serious?  Wow.  I've seen people blinded by biases before, but this is crazy.

What have I said that was crazy?!
I only reported on the demographic situation and said that most Armenians and Russians supported the Abkhazians. If you have information that contradicts the one I provided, please post it.

A.You're ignoring that 250,000 Georgians (and Armenians and Greeks) were forced from their homes and another 35,000 were killed in the process.
B.Armenians (and Greeks) suffered along with the Georgians.

Despite these facts you still side with the Russians.  Do you always support the side that displaces a quarter of a million people with violence?  I could go on, but it's much easier to let you continue tying your own rope.

[GMantis]

In fact the Georgians didn't have an absolute majority:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia#Demographics
The Abkhazians, Armenians and Russians outnumbered or nearly outnumbered them and most Armenians and Russians supported the Abkhazians and many joined in the fighting on their side(see here.)

Are you serious?  Wow.  I've seen people blinded by biases before, but this is crazy.

What have I said that was crazy?!
I only reported on the demographic situation and said that most Armenians and Russians supported the Abkhazians. If you have information that contradicts the one I provided, please post it.

A.You're ignoring that 250,000 Georgians (and Armenians and Greeks) were forced from their homes and another 35,000 were killed in the process.
B.Armenians (and Greeks) suffered along with the Georgians.

Despite these facts you still side with the Russians.  Do you always support the side that displaces a quarter of a million people with violence?  I could go on, but it's much easier to let you continue tying your own rope.

A.I was speaking of the demographic situation before the war. See the results of the 1989 census and provide information that contradicts it.
B. Yes, the Armenians certainly suffered. Read the article to see who caused the suffering and whose army they joined.
The situation in Abkhazia is very complicated and trying to reduce it to "They had a huge majority (incorrect); let them have it back" is an unhelpful simplification. This doesn't mean that it's right to stop the Georgians returning and I haven't said anything supporting their expulsion.

[dead0man]

A.Lets state the facts and drop this part of the subject.  In 1989 there were:
240,000 Georgians
93,000 Abkhaz
75,000 Russians
77,000 Armenians
15,000 Greeks

After the Abkhaz backed by the Russians killed and removed people from their homes the numbers looked like this:
46,000 Georgans
95,000 Abkhaz
23,000 Russians
45,000 Armenians
1,500 Greeks

Make of that what you will.

B.A slightly less biased source (or maybe just more biased in my direction, hard to tell) link disagree's.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Again, make of that what you will.

[GMantis]

A.Lets state the facts and drop this part of the subject.  In 1989 there were:
240,000 Georgians
93,000 Abkhaz
75,000 Russians
77,000 Armenians
15,000 Greeks

After the Abkhaz backed by the Russians killed and removed people from their homes the numbers looked like this:
46,000 Georgans
95,000 Abkhaz
23,000 Russians
45,000 Armenians
1,500 Greeks

Make of that what you will.

I will say it more clearly now. I'm not denying the expulsion of the Georgians. What I'm saying is that they didn't have an absolute majority before[/] the war, which is confirmed by these numbers

B.A slightly less biased source (or maybe just more biased in my direction, hard to tell) link disagree's.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Again, make of that what you will.

This slightly less biased source includes a link to the article I pointed out, so the makers of the page obviously didn't consider it too pro-Russian as you seem to think it. It's difficult to determine who the Armenians supported more and they certainly haven't been treated well after the war. But a significant army was raised in support of the Abkhazians. Nothing is said of Armenians joining the Georgian army. It could have happened, of course. But as a counterpoint of Armenians joining the Abkhazian army only Saakian's participation in the Georgian backed government is given. And after the war, the Armenians are the largest remaining minority in Abkhazia. It should be noted that even more Armenians left Georgia after 1991 and there have been similar complaints there about being underrepresented and about violent attacks- link.
Also the Georgians accuse the Armenians of participating in the atrocities after the fall of Sukhumi:
http://www.regnum.ru/english/739111.html

[dead0man]

So, how do you think the Russians and Abkhazi's should be punished for how they removed and killed Georgians.  What should be done to make things fair?

[GMantis]

So, how do you think the Russians and Abkhazi's should be punished for how they removed and killed Georgians.  What should be done to make things fair?

I don't believe that atrocities from one side should be punished by commiting atrocities on the other side. Collective responsibility is ugly, no matter who does.
Since you like the Russians much less than me (to put it mildly), you would be much better at suggesting a punishment that would fit their crime yourself.

[dead0man]

Nice dodge!

[GMantis]

If you are so insisent about my opinion, here is it:
All massacres and war crimes should be thoroughly investigated and all high ranking perpetrators must be tried in an international court in a neutral country. All refugees should have a right to return.
Now, how would you punish them?

[dead0man]

That would be it.  The international community should be pushing for that goal.  We should all be pissed when they don't because we all know nobody has the balls to do what's right.

[GMantis]

That would be it.  The international community should be pushing for that goal.  We should all be pissed when they don't because we all know nobody has the balls to do what's right.

Unlike you, I don't welcome the possibility of war between the US and Russia.

[Franzl]

That would be it.  The international community should be pushing for that goal.  We should all be pissed when they don't because we all know nobody has the balls to do what's right.

Unlike you, I don't welcome the possibility of war between the US and Russia.

tell that to the Russians.

[GMantis]

That would be it.  The international community should be pushing for that goal.  We should all be pissed when they don't because we all know nobody has the balls to do what's right.

Unlike you, I don't welcome the possibility of war between the US and Russia.

tell that to the Russians.

You're insane if you think the Russians welcome war with the US; they simply know that the US will not got to war with them over Georgia.

[dead0man]

That would be it.  The international community should be pushing for that goal.  We should all be pissed when they don't because we all know nobody has the balls to do what's right.

Unlike you, I don't welcome the possibility of war between the US and Russia.

I don't welcome war, but I don't want to stand down when our friends get pushed around.  It always ends up bad for us when we don't defend our allies (or other victims of an aggresive state), might as well face the bad as soon as possible and on our time table and get it over with.

[dead0man]

You're insane if you think the Russians welcome war with the US; they simply know that the US will not got to war with them over Georgia.

They don't know it, they might hope it or even assume it, but they don't know it.  I guess they might think they know it, but since the question hasn't been answered yet, I guess nobody knows it.

[GMantis]

You're insane if you think the Russians welcome war with the US; they simply know that the US will not got to war with them over Georgia.

They don't know it, they might hope it or even assume it, but they don't know it.  I guess they might think they know it, but since the question hasn't been answered yet, I guess nobody knows it.

I meant that it was extremely unlikely; you don't agree with this?