Breaking News- Medvedev orders end to Russian operations in Georgia
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  Breaking News- Medvedev orders end to Russian operations in Georgia
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Author Topic: Breaking News- Medvedev orders end to Russian operations in Georgia  (Read 5913 times)
Silent Hunter
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« on: August 12, 2008, 04:11:26 AM »

Just breaking on the BBC.
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dead0man
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« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2008, 04:18:03 AM »

Good.  Nothing on the internet yet it seems.
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Mango
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« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2008, 06:48:47 AM »

Yet another Munich analogy bites the dust.
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Hash
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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2008, 08:16:22 AM »
« Edited: August 12, 2008, 09:10:18 AM by Louis-Napoléon Bonaparte '08! »

But... but... I thought World War III was imminent now?

The media will be mad now. No "World War III Erupts!" headlines! Oh noes!
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tsionebreicruoc
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« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2008, 09:16:51 AM »

The media will be mad now. No "World War III Erupts!" headlines! Oh noes!

Almost, given they was just beginning to really speak about it...
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2008, 10:56:49 AM »

But... but... I thought World War III was imminent now?

The media will be mad now. No "World War III Erupts!" headlines! Oh noes!

The American media spent zero time discussing this story anyway... which is particularly angering, because in terms of proportionality Georgia's commitment as a US ally is larger than any other country.

Eitherway, I want to know what we gave the Russians.  If it was anything more than a stiff threat then Putin won.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2008, 11:02:13 AM »

This is the closest thing I have been able to find:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/12/georgia.russia.war/index.html

 MOSCOW, Russia (CNN)  -- The Russian and French presidents on Tuesday announced a six-point plan of principles for settling the immediate conflict in Georgia but stopped short of tackling the issues that sparked the violence.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy meets his Russian counterpart, Dmitry Medvedev, in Moscow.

"We have not achieved peace yet but we have achieved a provisional cease-fire of hostilities," French President Nicolas Sarkozy said.

The points include Russian agreements to conclude all military operations, return Russian armed forces to the line preceding the beginning of operations, and not use force again in Georgia.

In return Georgia would return its armed forces to their normal and permanent locations.

Both sides would provide free access for humanitarian assistance; and international consideration of the issues of South Ossetia and Abkhazia would be undertaken.

"All we need to do now is to stop suffering, stop the death of people," Sarkozy said. Stopping the fighting "is the most important objective."

He emphasized that the meeting with Russia's President Dmitry Medvedev was not intended to solve all of the issues, such as Georgia's territorial integrity and South Ossetia's desire for independence.

"There are bigger problems relating to South Ossetia that we cannot resolve here," Sarkozy said, who arrived in Moscow as current head of the European Union.
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Sarkozy said he and Medvedev agreed Georgia is an independent country and that Russia has no intention of annexing it, but Medvedev also said "sovereignty is based on the will of the people" and "territorial integrity can be demonstrated by the actual facts on the ground."

Medvedev said earlier that he had ordered an end to military operations against Georgia, but Tbilisi reported more attacks after the statement was made. Video Watch Georgia's reaction to halt in fighting »

"I have reached a decision to halt the operation to force the Georgian authorities to peace," Medvedev said. "The aggressor has been punished and has incurred very significant losses. Its armed forces are disorganized."

Meanwhile, thousands of Georgians rallied in the country's capital, Tbilisi, following Medvedev's announcement. Video Watch the rally »
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U.S. officials also told CNN it was considering flying aid from bases in Germany to Georgia. There was also consideration being given to sending U.S. Navy ships into the Black Sea to conduct humanitarian relief missions.

Violence has raged since Thursday when Georgia launched a crackdown on separatist fighters in autonomous South Ossetia, where most people have long supported independence.

Russia -- which supports the separatists -- responded Friday, sending tanks across its border into South Ossetia. The conflict quickly spread to parts of Georgia and to Abkhazia, another separatist region.

Russian said it wanted to stop Georgian military actions against its peacekeepers in the breakaway regions.

The Georgian government said despite Medvedev's announcement, Russian warplanes struck two Georgian villages and bombed an ambulance outside the breakaway province of South Ossetia. Video Watch more on the fighting in South Ossetia »

The Russian Defense Ministry called the Georgian claims "informational provocations" and believed they would continue, Interfax reported.

Medvedev warned in his announcement that "when pockets of resistance and other aggressive actions occur," a decision concerning destruction had to be made.

Earlier a Georgian Interior Ministry official said Russian bombs had hit one of the three pipelines carrying oil to the Black Sea port of Poti. There was no oil in the pipeline at the time. Interactive map: See how far the Russians have advanced »

UK-based energy giant BP later said it had shut down two oil pipelines in the region as a "precautionary measure" linked to the security situation. None of its pipelines had been attacked.

A Dutch cameraman was killed on Tuesday morning in an incident in Gori, the Dutch Foreign Ministry confirmed. He was identified as Stan Storimans, of RTL TV. The correspondent who accompanied him was also injured.

One Russian diplomat told CNN up to 2,000 people had died in the conflict. Up to 100,000 people are thought to have been displaced by the violence, which has left South Ossetia's capital Tskhinvali in ruins.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said in a Tuesday news conference that it wanted a demilitarized zone to be created in Georgian territory before a cease-fire could take effect. Video Watch Lavrov speak about Georgia »

The zone had to be big enough to prevent Georgia's military from attacking the breakaway province, he added.
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Lavrov said it would be best if Mikheil Saakashvili stepped down as Georgia's president -- something he has not offered to do -- but that Russia was not demanding his resignation.

He said Saakashvili's "barbaric and brutal action" had undermined trust in Georgia.
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Mango
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« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2008, 11:19:09 AM »

But... but... I thought World War III was imminent now?

The media will be mad now. No "World War III Erupts!" headlines! Oh noes!

The American media spent zero time discussing this story anyway... which is particularly angering, because in terms of proportionality Georgia's commitment as a US ally is larger than any other country.

Eitherway, I want to know what we gave the Russians.  If it was anything more than a stiff threat then Putin won.

What makes you think 'we' gave the Russians anything? They've achieved all they wanted to achieve; keep South Ossetia outside of Georgia, put the Georgians back in their box, sent a message to other neighbouring states not to try anyhting similar, and called Europe and the U.S' bluff.

Seeing as they would have no reason or desire to actually conquer Georgia, there's no reason for them to prolong the conflict.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2008, 11:25:27 AM »

But... but... I thought World War III was imminent now?

The media will be mad now. No "World War III Erupts!" headlines! Oh noes!

The American media spent zero time discussing this story anyway... which is particularly angering, because in terms of proportionality Georgia's commitment as a US ally is larger than any other country.

Eitherway, I want to know what we gave the Russians.  If it was anything more than a stiff threat then Putin won.

What makes you think 'we' gave the Russians anything? They've achieved all they wanted to achieve; keep South Ossetia outside of Georgia, put the Georgians back in their box, sent a message to other neighbouring states not to try anyhting similar, and called Europe and the U.S' bluff.

Seeing as they would have no reason or desire to actually conquer Georgia, there's no reason for them to prolong the conflict.


That's exactly what I meant.  By telling the Russians anything more than "Get the Hell out" we gave them what they wanted.
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Mango
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« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2008, 11:40:07 AM »

I really don't think the U.S has had any involvement in this at all. Russia is getting out because at the moment they have no reason to stay in. If they think Georgia hasn't learned their 'lesson' they'll go back in again.

Contrary to what some think, Putin isn't Hitler. His main foreign policy goal is exactly the goal of practically all Russian leaders for centuries; exert dominance over the region. That's never going to change.
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dead0man
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« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2008, 11:54:26 AM »

..and logically, everyone should just capitulate.  I mean, since it's inevitable and all.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2008, 12:34:42 PM »

I really don't think the U.S has had any involvement in this at all. Russia is getting out because at the moment they have no reason to stay in. If they think Georgia hasn't learned their 'lesson' they'll go back in again.

Contrary to what some think, Putin isn't Hitler. His main foreign policy goal is exactly the goal of practically all Russian leaders for centuries; exert dominance over the region. That's never going to change.

When I say "we" I mean the West.
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Cubby
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« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2008, 12:45:08 PM »

Medvedev didn't come up with this himself. Putin told him to order an end to Russian aggression. This conflict has shown that the latter is still fully in charge of all aspects of the government, not that we didn't know that before.

South Ossettia is Georgian territory, and Russia had no right to invade. If Canada issued passports to all residents of Maine, I think we'd have a big problem too. This phony excuse they used about "protecting Ossettians" is a total lie.
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Colin
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« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2008, 12:47:55 PM »

..and logically, everyone should just capitulate.  I mean, since it's inevitable and all.

Well what would you have us do? Attack Russia over this? Get into either a massive conventional land war or a nuclear exchange? Is the solution to every problem nowadays just bombing the heck out of it?
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2008, 01:42:00 PM »

I wouldn't be happy with anything short of independence for South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The chances this agreement leaves for it are very slim.
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Boris
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« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2008, 02:26:58 PM »

The BBC says that the six point peace plan has been agreed to by Russia and is under consideration by Georgia. Here are the components of the plan:

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So what the fuck was the point of this war? You could have gone directly to point #6 without killing a few hundred (thousand?) people. I'm still utterly confused about Russia's motives here...
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benconstine
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« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2008, 03:14:03 PM »

Good Smiley

Although they really could have avoided this whole thing and jumped to point 6.
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MarkWarner08
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« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2008, 03:50:16 PM »

What does Putin think? He must back this, right? Or could this be Medvedev asserting his new found power?
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2008, 04:04:09 PM »

Good Smiley

Although they really could have avoided this whole thing and jumped to point 6.

Why would they? They just had a major gain in prestige there.
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Verily
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« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2008, 04:30:04 PM »

I wouldn't be happy with anything short of independence for South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The chances this agreement leaves for it are very slim.

South Ossetia has a population under 100,000. That's not large enough for a sustainable independent state, IMO, barring severe geographic reasons to be separate (think Pacific islands). Yes, Andorra, Liechtenstein, etc. are problems, too.
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Angel of Death
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« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2008, 05:40:35 PM »

Allowing the return of refugees wasn't one of the points?
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Daniel Adams
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« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2008, 07:03:48 PM »

I wouldn't be happy with anything short of independence for South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The chances this agreement leaves for it are very slim.
You are mistaking both of them for actual states as we understand them in the West. They are nothing more than puppet states, governed by Russia. The vast majority of the government officials in Abkhazia and South Ossetia are Russians, usually Putin's former buddies from the KGB. They use the two countries for their mafia operations as well as keeping Georgian sovereignty in check. Abkhazia's supposed "democracy" is a farce: the Russians ensure only the candidates they support win. South Ossetia doesn't even bother. The Russians have supplied Abkhazians and Ossetians with Russian citizenship even though many haven't ever stepped foot in Russia. Russia has even passed laws that treat the two provinces as part of Russia, a point emphasized by the military takeover of Abkhazia a few months ago.

The governments of Abkhazia and South Ossetia have no popular support and it is likely that they don't view independence from Georgia as an important objective (the South Ossetian referendum was quite clearly heavily rigged). Just look at Adjara, the third Russian puppet state in Georgia, which was retaken by Georgia in 2004 fairly easily and successfully.

This is not about Abkhazia or South Ossetia. Neither of them are real sates. Its about Russia and Georgia, and the Abkhazians and Ossetians are being used by the Russians to threaten and attack Georgia.
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dead0man
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« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2008, 08:33:08 PM »

..and logically, everyone should just capitulate.  I mean, since it's inevitable and all.

Well what would you have us do? Attack Russia over this? Get into either a massive conventional land war or a nuclear exchange? Is the solution to every problem nowadays just bombing the heck out of it?
Ya can't think of anything we could do between crying in a corner and nuking Moscow?  Putin knows he can't win against the west, but he also knows we have no balls.  He's testing us.  How we act here, how we respond to the test is going to have a large effect on how various parties act in the future.  Caving into them is certainly an option to consider here, it is just a little backwaterburg on the other side of the globe.  It would be silly to start WWIII over such an unimportant place.  But ya can't "turn the other cheek" everytime a bully smacks your buddy upside the head.  I also understand you can't fire up the B52's everytime your biggest challenger flexes in the mirror.  But we can't capitulate to the biggest bully, ESPECIALLY out of fear he might hit us if we use harsh, threatening words or bully back.
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« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2008, 12:20:42 AM »
« Edited: August 13, 2008, 06:45:38 AM by mango »

But that isn't saying what exactly they should have done. There's no use saying they just have to 'do something'.


The Russians have now signed a cease fire. How exactly would any action you propose lead to a better situation? if you gave limited military and economic to the Georgians and strongly took their side, they'd still get overrun and Russia would be more inclined to exact more pressing demands and less exactly to accept a peace deal. The only way you could get a Georgian 'victory' is through a full scale war and if you advocate that you're a suicidal lunatic.

I'm sick of all these armchair Tough Guys who think every single foreign incident is a Munich and every aggressive world leader is a Hitler. There is nothing unusual about this conflict. Sh*t like this has happened since the dawn of nation-states and it will always happen. so long as nationalism and pride and ethnicity exist as human concepts, there's really not much you can do to stop it.
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« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2008, 01:00:48 AM »
« Edited: August 13, 2008, 01:04:56 AM by Your eyelids close when you're around me to shut me out »

I wouldn't be happy with anything short of independence for South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The chances this agreement leaves for it are very slim.

Why the fuck should Abkhazia ever get independence? It was majority Georgian until the trash there now ethnically cleansed them. Abkhazia's "government" deserves nothing more than complete destruction, just like that abomination Transinistria.
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