Who do you support in the Georgia/Russia conflict?

[minionofmidas]

A question to those who wholeheartedly support Georgia: what should happen to South Ossetia?

The same thing that happened to Adjara.

Ah, it's population deported to Central Asia, and denied even its ethnic name (the later Soviet Censi call the Adjars "Turks"), with the empty shell of the former Autonomous Republic remaining in existence anyways.

Thanks for sharing.

Cite for Georgia deporting or otherwise mistreating Adjarians?

I was actually referring to Stalin's actions in Adjaria.

[Daniel Adams]

A question to those who wholeheartedly support Georgia: what should happen to South Ossetia?

The same thing that happened to Adjara.

Ah, it's population deported to Central Asia, and denied even its ethnic name (the later Soviet Censi call the Adjars "Turks"), with the empty shell of the former Autonomous Republic remaining in existence anyways.

Thanks for sharing.

Cite for Georgia deporting or otherwise mistreating Adjarians?

I was actually referring to Stalin's actions in Adjaria.

I was referring to what happened when Georgia regained control of Adjara in 2004. It went relatively well, given the circumstances.

[GMantis]

I believe the South Ossetians broke the ceasefire

You believe? Do you have evidence, or the Russians are always automatically wrong?

so the Georgian incursion was just retaliation.

Destroying and then occupying the region's capital, under the call of restoring constitutional order (in other words, occupy South Ossetia). Seems a bit of an overreaction, but that's probably just me.

[minionofmidas]

I believe the South Ossetians broke the ceasefire

You believe? Do you have evidence, or the Russians are always automatically wrong?

No, the American allies are always automatically right.

Which, unlike the first assumption, is not a sane one to make.

[Josh/Devilman88]

Do you think this could break out into a bigger war?

[GMantis]

Do you think this could break out into a bigger war?

If the Americans snapped and attacked Russia, yes. In the real world probably not.

[Hash]

Do you think this could break out into a bigger war?

No.

Thanks for jacking my flag btw

[Daniel Adams]

I believe the South Ossetians broke the ceasefire

You believe? Do you have evidence, or the Russians are always automatically wrong?

"Separatists opened fire at the two Georgian villages of Prisi and Tamarasheni, and we had to return fire," the secretary of the Georgian National Security Council Kakha Lomaia told Reuters.

Given past and recent events, yes, I do trust Georgia far more than Russia.

so the Georgian incursion was just retaliation.

Destroying and then occupying the region's capital, under the call of restoring constitutional order (in other words, occupy South Ossetia). Seems a bit of an overreaction, but that's probably just me.

Wrong. Georgia justly retaliated after Ossetian rebels broke the ceasfire, after having tolerated YEARS of Russian acts of war against Georgia. It's the straw that broke the camel's back. Perhaps it was foolish in retrospect, but not an overreaction.

And how dare you blame the destruction of the South Ossetian capital solely on Georgia. I'm sure the Russians had nothing to do with it.

[GMantis]

I believe the South Ossetians broke the ceasefire

You believe? Do you have evidence, or the Russians are always automatically wrong?

"Separatists opened fire at the two Georgian villages of Prisi and Tamarasheni, and we had to return fire," the secretary of the Georgian National Security Council Kakha Lomaia told Reuters.

Given past and recent events, yes, I do trust Georgia far more than Russia.

so the Georgian incursion was just retaliation.

Destroying and then occupying the region's capital, under the call of restoring constitutional order (in other words, occupy South Ossetia). Seems a bit of an overreaction, but that's probably just me.

Wrong. Georgia justly retaliated after Ossetian rebels broke the ceasfire, after having tolerated YEARS of Russian acts of war against Georgia. It's the straw that broke the camel's back. Perhaps it was foolish in retrospect, but not an overreaction.

And how dare you blame the destruction of the South Ossetian capital solely on Georgia. I'm sure the Russians had nothing to do with it.

Yes, I dare. The Russians didn't react to that attack for a very significant period of time. When they did, the city was already severely damaged and refugees were streaming out.
What were these acts of war you speak of? Things were rather strained and there were sporadic shootous - started by both sides, but it can be hardly called acts of war.
About who broke the ceasefire, I'm not prepared to trust either side yet. Especially after yesterday, when they both controlled Tskhinvali completely, at the same time.

[Daniel Adams]

Yes, I dare. The Russians didn't react to that attack for a very significant period of time. When they did, the city was already severely damaged and refugees were streaming out.
What were these acts of war you speak of? Things were rather strained and there were sporadic shootous - started by both sides, but it can be hardly called acts of war.

Russians are supposed to be peacekeepers. That is the sole reason they are in South Ossetia. Any military action by the supposed Russians peacekeepers against Georgian territory can be reasonable causus belli. But you asked for specific examples:

* September 2006: Russian spies discovered in Georgia
* March 2007: Russian helicopters attack a school and Georgian government offices in Kodori Gorge, in the Georgian-controlled part of Abkhazia. The UN report makes it clear, if indirectly, that the Russians were involved.
* August 2007: A Russian military jet illegally enters Georgian airspace and drops a missile in Tsitelubani, which thankfully does not explode. Georgian account is confirmed by two international investigations.
* August 2007: Russia once against violates Georgian airspace in the Abkhazia region.
* September 2007: The Russian ambassador to Georgia insults that nation.
* April 2008: Russia shoots down a Georgian UAV in Abkhazia. Georgian account confimred by the UN. Russia then starts a military buildup in Abkhazia, ridiculously claiming it's for "peacekeeping".

About who broke the ceasefire, I'm not prepared to trust either side yet. Especially after yesterday, when they both controlled Tskhinvali completely, at the same time.

When one reviews previous Russian attacks and violations of Georgian sovereignity, it becomes rather clear who broke the ceasefire.

[StateBoiler]

When one reviews previous Russian attacks and violations of Georgian sovereignity, it becomes rather clear who broke the ceasefire.

Every single American military observer/insider I've read on this has said Saakashvili started this in the hope to achieve surprise.

[Хahar 🤔]

Neither. The seperatists have legitimate grievances, but the Georgians are fighting Putin.

[Daniel Adams]

When one reviews previous Russian attacks and violations of Georgian sovereignity, it becomes rather clear who broke the ceasefire.

Every single American military observer/insider I've read on this has said Saakashvili started this in the hope to achieve surprise.

Which does not minimize the fact that that Russia has given Georgia numerous justifications for war before. I wonder how these insiders explain the South Ossetian attacks on Georgian villages. Ignore them?

[GMantis]

Yes, I dare. The Russians didn't react to that attack for a very significant period of time. When they did, the city was already severely damaged and refugees were streaming out.
What were these acts of war you speak of? Things were rather strained and there were sporadic shootous - started by both sides, but it can be hardly called acts of war.

Russians are supposed to be peacekeepers. That is the sole reason they are in South Ossetia. Any military action by the supposed Russians peacekeepers against Georgian territory can be reasonable causus belli. But you asked for specific examples:

* September 2006: Russian spies discovered in Georgia
* March 2007: Russian helicopters attack a school and Georgian government offices in Kodori Gorge, in the Georgian-controlled part of Abkhazia. The UN report makes it clear, if indirectly, that the Russians were involved.
* August 2007: A Russian military jet illegally enters Georgian airspace and drops a missile in Tsitelubani, which thankfully does not explode. Georgian account is confirmed by two international investigations.
* August 2007: Russia once against violates Georgian airspace in the Abkhazia region.
* September 2007: The Russian ambassador to Georgia insults that nation.
* April 2008: Russia shoots down a Georgian UAV in Abkhazia. Georgian account confimred by the UN. Russia then starts a military buildup in Abkhazia, ridiculously claiming it's for "peacekeeping".

And the Georgians haven't done anything?

[Daniel Adams]

Yes, I dare. The Russians didn't react to that attack for a very significant period of time. When they did, the city was already severely damaged and refugees were streaming out.
What were these acts of war you speak of? Things were rather strained and there were sporadic shootous - started by both sides, but it can be hardly called acts of war.

Russians are supposed to be peacekeepers. That is the sole reason they are in South Ossetia. Any military action by the supposed Russians peacekeepers against Georgian territory can be reasonable causus belli. But you asked for specific examples:

* September 2006: Russian spies discovered in Georgia
* March 2007: Russian helicopters attack a school and Georgian government offices in Kodori Gorge, in the Georgian-controlled part of Abkhazia. The UN report makes it clear, if indirectly, that the Russians were involved.
* August 2007: A Russian military jet illegally enters Georgian airspace and drops a missile in Tsitelubani, which thankfully does not explode. Georgian account is confirmed by two international investigations.
* August 2007: Russia once against violates Georgian airspace in the Abkhazia region.
* September 2007: The Russian ambassador to Georgia insults that nation.
* April 2008: Russia shoots down a Georgian UAV in Abkhazia. Georgian account confimred by the UN. Russia then starts a military buildup in Abkhazia, ridiculously claiming it's for "peacekeeping".

And the Georgians haven't done anything?

Perhaps you could enlighten us of unprovoked Georgian attacks on Russia. Even better, you could tell us of Georgian puppet states inside Russia, ruled by the Georgian military under the façade of "peacekeeping".

[StateBoiler]

Who I or anyone else on these message boards support is immaterial unless I grab a gun and fly over the Atlantic to help shoot.

Is anyone on here going to head over to Georgia and volunteer?

That's a silly position.  So in WWII was it immaterial for the people at home to support the war or not?  Last I checked the majority of Americans did not go to war, yet the support at home was essential to the victory.  How about with sport, can someone support a team without joining them?  I think so, that's why money is made via merchandise.

Support certainly is material in any conflict or situation, and it can come in many different ways.

On WWII, that's because it was our country people had their families or people they knew were involved. If I had a brother in this, I think I'd hope for the best for whatever side he was on. This conflict involves two countries few if any of us have ties to.

And besides, I can say I'm cheering for Luxembourg if Belgium invaded them. But unless I'm actually helping them, my support is not worth much toward helping Luxembourg win, is it? I don't care about someone reading on a computer cheering as if it's a football game, and neither do the Georgians or Russians unless you have some kind of tangible amount of power.

[Keystone Phil]

I guess I am obliged to say "neither" because I still don't know what the hell this is about but I actually support the Republic of Georgia.

[exopolitician]

I dont know. I dont like Russia at all...so I guess im more sympathetic towards Georgia I guess...even if they arent totally innocent.

[StateBoiler]

When one reviews previous Russian attacks and violations of Georgian sovereignity, it becomes rather clear who broke the ceasefire.

Every single American military observer/insider I've read on this has said Saakashvili started this in the hope to achieve surprise.

Which does not minimize the fact that that Russia has given Georgia numerous justifications for war before. I wonder how these insiders explain the South Ossetian attacks on Georgian villages. Ignore them?

-Georgians declare ceasefire with South Ossetia, South Ossetians say they put down their guns.
-Within 12 hours Georgian Army invades South Ossetia.

I'm not arguing that the Georgians aren't justified to attack Russia. I'm just saying that if they attack Russia, they have to put up with the consequences of that decision, and what's going on now is that. And that type of arrangement keeps peace. I'm sure some in Iran or North Korea would love to attack the U.S. But they don't. Why? Because they know we would search them out and kill them and level their country if they did so, so they choose the self-preservation route.

Let me make this perfectly clear: Saakashvili is a f***ing idiot. This is what it would be like if Taiwan ever attacked China first. If you notice, the Bush administration are not supporting Saakashvili at all (they're supporting Georgia's right to the status quo with a ceasefire, which means South Ossetia and Abkhazia return to their previous state as outside of Georgian control, Bush is not supporting the President). Why? Because they know this fact: Saakashvili is a f***ing idiot. What he did was the equivalent of if Castro ever decided to drop a missile on Miami. We would level the holy snot out of Havana and the rest of the country just in retaliation for being pissed off. We did the same thing to the Taliban in Afghanistan after 9/11.

You don't piss off something incredibly more powerful than yourself that doesn't like you to start with. All Russia needed was an excuse because each country was hostile to one another for a long time and Saakashvili was stupid enough to give it to them. Israel did the same thing with Lebanon in July 2006 after Hezbollah kidnapped the two Israeli soldiers. Israel proceeded to bomb the crap out of the entirety of the country, even the Christian areas that didn't like Hezbollah.

[Daniel Adams]

-Georgians declare ceasefire with South Ossetia, South Ossetians say they put down their guns.
-Within 12 hours Georgian Army invades South Ossetia.

I'm not arguing that the Georgians aren't justified to attack Russia. I'm just saying that if they attack Russia, they have to put up with the consequences of that decision, and what's going on now is that. And that type of arrangement keeps peace. I'm sure some in Iran or North Korea would love to attack the U.S. But they don't. Why? Because they know we would search them out and kill them and level their country if they did so, so they choose the self-preservation route.

Let me make this perfectly clear: Saakashvili is a f***ing idiot. If you notice, the Bush administration are not supporting him at all (they're supporting Georgia's right to the status quo with a ceasefire, which means South Ossetia and Abkhazia return to their previous state as outside of Georgian control, Bush is not supporting the President). Why? Because they know this fact: Saakashvili is a f***ing idiot. What he did was the equivalent of if Castro ever decided to drop a missile on Miami. We would level the holy snot out of Havana and the rest of the country just in retaliation for being pissed off. We did the same thing to the Taliban in Afghanistan after 9/11.

You don't piss off something incredibly more powerful than yourself that doesn't like you to start with. All Russia needed was an excuse because each country was hostile to one another for a long time and Saakashvili was stupid enough to give it to them. Israel did the same thing with Lebanon in July 2006 after Hezbollah kidnapped the two Israeli soldiers. Israel proceeded to bomb the crap out of the entirety of the country, even the Christian areas that didn't like Hezbollah.

It's your Castro dropping a bomb in Miami analogy that's idiotic. Get this straight: SOUTH OSSETIA IS PART OF GEORGIA, and is recognized as such by every nation, including Russia. Georgia didn't attack Russia, nor did it threaten to, even though they had justification for doing so. Georgians entered South Ossetia, which is part of their own territory, in response to an Ossetian attack on Georgian villages.

Even if Georgia hadn't retaliated for the attack, Russia would've found an excuse to invade Georgia anyway. It is clear to any one who has been watching the situation that Russia hates Saakashvili's government for joining the West. Georgia had no good options.

[Хahar 🤔]

And until Versailles, you could say POLAND IS A PART OF GERMANY/AUSTRIA-HUNGARY/RUSSIA. Does that make it right? Or do you just not believe in national self-determination?

[StateBoiler]

-Georgians declare ceasefire with South Ossetia, South Ossetians say they put down their guns.
-Within 12 hours Georgian Army invades South Ossetia.

I'm not arguing that the Georgians aren't justified to attack Russia. I'm just saying that if they attack Russia, they have to put up with the consequences of that decision, and what's going on now is that. And that type of arrangement keeps peace. I'm sure some in Iran or North Korea would love to attack the U.S. But they don't. Why? Because they know we would search them out and kill them and level their country if they did so, so they choose the self-preservation route.

Let me make this perfectly clear: Saakashvili is a f***ing idiot. If you notice, the Bush administration are not supporting him at all (they're supporting Georgia's right to the status quo with a ceasefire, which means South Ossetia and Abkhazia return to their previous state as outside of Georgian control, Bush is not supporting the President). Why? Because they know this fact: Saakashvili is a f***ing idiot. What he did was the equivalent of if Castro ever decided to drop a missile on Miami. We would level the holy snot out of Havana and the rest of the country just in retaliation for being pissed off. We did the same thing to the Taliban in Afghanistan after 9/11.

You don't piss off something incredibly more powerful than yourself that doesn't like you to start with. All Russia needed was an excuse because each country was hostile to one another for a long time and Saakashvili was stupid enough to give it to them. Israel did the same thing with Lebanon in July 2006 after Hezbollah kidnapped the two Israeli soldiers. Israel proceeded to bomb the crap out of the entirety of the country, even the Christian areas that didn't like Hezbollah.

It's your Castro dropping a bomb in Miami analogy that's idiotic. Get this straight: SOUTH OSSETIA IS PART OF GEORGIA

And according to the U.S., Taiwan does not exist and is a part of China. We don't have even officially have diplomatic relations with them. Now are you going to tell me Taiwan doesn't exist?

I don't deal with de jure. I deal with de facto.

Somaliland, Transnistria, Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, Turkish Cyprus, Taiwan, the Sahrawi Arab Republic, Kosovo are all independent countries. If they weren't, their leaderships would not exist and those regions would be controlled by the central governments of Somalia, Moldova, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Cyprus, China, Morocco, and Serbia. But they're not. If the Serbian government does not control the land of Kosovo, then how can someone think Kosovo is a part of Serbia?

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You and I are just going to disagree on this. I've already stated my case. When the Confederacy broke away from the Union in the 1860s, no foreign power ever recognized them. It didn't change the fact it was an independent country until the Union forcefully retook it though in 1865.

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Why should Saakashvili aid Putin and Medvedev then?

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No sh*t. In other news, 2+2=4.

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They could've done the same option Cuba has: don't piss off the bigger, larger neighbor that doesn't like you too much.

[StateBoiler]

http://lefarkins.blogspot.com/2008/08/georgia-cries-uncle.html

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If either the Georgian military or political class believed that the US and the EU would provide material assistance, then this was a larger miscalculation than I had previously believed.[/quote]

[CultureKing]

Russia really needs a slap in the face.

[??????????]

Russia really needs a slap in the face.

Patton gave us that chance 60 years ago.