When should secession be supported and when shouldn't it?

[Jacobtm]

Under what conditions should regions of a country be allowed to secede and constitute a new country?

I basically find the Declaration of Independence's assessment of this to be reasonable; essentially that governments are only legitimate if they have the consent of the governed, and that if a group of people does not consent to the way their government treats them, then they have the right to institute a new government.

This essentially gives the benefit of the doubt to any long-standing separatist movement based on indigenous efforts that are supported by a majority of a particular area, but excludes those movements sponsored by foreign governments to achieve political gains.

Here's the text, for those wanting a refresher:

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[bgwah]

I don't know why, but secession fascinates me...

We already have one new country this year. Any ideas on what the next might be?

[Jacobtm]

I don't know why, but secession fascinates me...

We already have one new country this year. Any ideas on what the next might be?

Who can tell beyond countries that are already in conflict? It could end up being Belgium's breakup that leads to the next new country.

[bgwah]

^ I thought the situtation in Belgium had died down a lot. It would be kind of cool to see three new countries develop there (with Brussels as an independent city-state). Or perhaps Wallonia and Flanders would join France and the Netherlands, respectively? Interesting either way, I suppose.

Perhaps Somaliland will eventually be recognized? I doubt it.

What about Bosnia and Herzegovina? I don't know a lot about it, but it splitting seems like the last plausible new country in that region.

I think it's likely Southern Sudan will become it's own country, eventually. Wikipedia says they're voting on whether to secede in 2011.

[dead0man]

Under what conditions should regions of a country be allowed to secede and constitute a new country?

When the Federal or central power allows them to and not a second before.

(or whenever the region in question can defend themselves from the Federal or central power)


I don't like the wording of your question though.  Are you trying to ask:

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[Jacobtm]

I don't like the wording of your question though.  Are you trying to ask:

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Revolution has a different meaning than secession. Russia, France, China, and we had "revolutions", where we the form of government for a whole country was changed. Secession is where party of a country wishes to break away.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Under what conditions should regions of a country be allowed to secede and constitute a new country?

When the Federal or central power allows them to and not a second before.

(or whenever the region in question can defend themselves from the Federal or central power)

Agreed, but if an other country, or an alliance of several ones, wanna support the partition of an other one, why not? Kosovars seem to be happy that NATO permitted their independence. If everyone assumes what it does, and especially to break the sovereignty of an other country in the name of principles or self-interest or others, to me it's OK. The only thing I would ask is speeches to be accorded with acts, and when it is impossible I would like we change speeches. Everyone might have heard about this place named...Tibet...

[Silent Hunter]

My view: When a clear majority of the local population wishes to secede, that they will provide protection for the rights of those who disagree and do not force them to leave, they have good motivations for leaving and that they are willing to be a peaceful member of the international community.

[GMantis]

My view: When a clear majority of the local population wishes to secede, that they will provide protection for the rights of those who disagree and do not force them to leave, they have good motivations for leaving and that they are willing to be a peaceful member of the international community.

I would say that Kosovo fullfils between one and two of those conditions. And this is being generous.

[Bono]

Always. I support the independence of pretty much anyone who wants independence.

[Silent Hunter]

My view: When a clear majority of the local population wishes to secede, that they will provide protection for the rights of those who disagree and do not force them to leave, they have good motivations for leaving and that they are willing to be a peaceful member of the international community.

I would say that Kosovo fullfils between one and two of those conditions. And this is being generous.

I'd say three. Two is debatable.

[GMantis]

My view: When a clear majority of the local population wishes to secede, that they will provide protection for the rights of those who disagree and do not force them to leave, they have good motivations for leaving and that they are willing to be a peaceful member of the international community.

I would say that Kosovo fullfils between one and two of those conditions. And this is being generous.

I'd say three. Two is debatable.

I think that they haven't provided protection for those for who diasagree and don't really see why they would do so in the future. And their support for separatists in neighbouring countries doesn't inspire much hope for their future good international relations.
The debatable point is how good their reasons for leaving was. They were quite happy in Yugoslavia when they dominated Kosovo.

[Silent Hunter]

I think that they haven't provided protection for those for who diasagree and don't really see why they would do so in the future. And their support for separatists in neighbouring countries doesn't inspire much hope for their future good international relations.
The debatable point is how good their reasons for leaving was. They were quite happy in Yugoslavia when they dominated Kosovo.

What about 1999?

[GMantis]

I think that they haven't provided protection for those for who diasagree and don't really see why they would do so in the future. And their support for separatists in neighbouring countries doesn't inspire much hope for their future good international relations.
The debatable point is how good their reasons for leaving was. They were quite happy in Yugoslavia when they dominated Kosovo.

What about 1999?

That's why I said it was debatable. You should remember however that the violence was started by Albanian rebels and there were realtively few refugees initially.

[Daniel Adams]

I think the best guidelines for when to support succession are those in 1972 Libertarian Party Platform (strange source, I know):

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Hence the independence of Kosovo, for example, should be supported. South Ossetia has major problems with the 3rd point.

[GMantis]

I think the best guidelines for when to support succession are those in 1972 Libertarian Party Platform (strange source, I know):

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Hence the independence of Kosovo, for example, should be supported. South Ossetia has major problems with the 3rd point.

I think Kosovo has great problems with 2, and 3 is also questionable. To, be fair the same could be said of South Ossetia.

[Daniel Adams]

I think the best guidelines for when to support succession are those in 1972 Libertarian Party Platform (strange source, I know):

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Hence the independence of Kosovo, for example, should be supported. South Ossetia has major problems with the 3rd point.

I think Kosovo has great problems with 2, and 3 is also questionable. To, be fair the same could be said of South Ossetia.

Kosovo has less freedom than Serbia?

Regarding South Ossetia and Abkhazia, I'm curious as to the actual popular support for independence. To me they seem like Russia's puppet states.

[John Dibble]

I think the best guidelines for when to support succession are those in 1972 Libertarian Party Platform (strange source, I know):

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Hence the independence of Kosovo, for example, should be supported. South Ossetia has major problems with the 3rd point.

Those are actually reasonable standards, though I think more than just a 51% majority should be required. Maybe something along the lines of 2/3 or 3/4 of the voting public.

[GMantis]

I think the best guidelines for when to support succession are those in 1972 Libertarian Party Platform (strange source, I know):

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Hence the independence of Kosovo, for example, should be supported. South Ossetia has major problems with the 3rd point.

I think Kosovo has great problems with 2, and 3 is also questionable. To, be fair the same could be said of South Ossetia.

Kosovo has less freedom than Serbia?

Regarding South Ossetia and Abkhazia, I'm curious as to the actual popular support for independence. To me they seem like Russia's puppet states.

Ossetia and Abkhazia had huge wars with Georgia, with many atrocities on both sides. I doubt that rejoining Georgia has much support.
About Serbia, I would say that they are more democratic than a country controlled by a former gang organization.

[Daniel Adams]

I think the best guidelines for when to support succession are those in 1972 Libertarian Party Platform (strange source, I know):

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Hence the independence of Kosovo, for example, should be supported. South Ossetia has major problems with the 3rd point.

I think Kosovo has great problems with 2, and 3 is also questionable. To, be fair the same could be said of South Ossetia.

Kosovo has less freedom than Serbia?

Regarding South Ossetia and Abkhazia, I'm curious as to the actual popular support for independence. To me they seem like Russia's puppet states.

Ossetia and Abkhazia had huge wars with Georgia, with many atrocities on both sides. I doubt that rejoining Georgia has much support.

How did the unification of Adjara and Georgia work out? Couldn't a similar arrangement be achieved with Abkhazia and South Ossetia? Or are the situations too different?

[Dan the Roman]

I think the best guidelines for when to support succession are those in 1972 Libertarian Party Platform (strange source, I know):

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Hence the independence of Kosovo, for example, should be supported. South Ossetia has major problems with the 3rd point.

I think Kosovo has great problems with 2, and 3 is also questionable. To, be fair the same could be said of South Ossetia.

Kosovo has less freedom than Serbia?

Regarding South Ossetia and Abkhazia, I'm curious as to the actual popular support for independence. To me they seem like Russia's puppet states.

Ossetia and Abkhazia had huge wars with Georgia, with many atrocities on both sides. I doubt that rejoining Georgia has much support.

How did the unification of Adjara and Georgia work out? Couldn't a similar arrangement be achieved with Abkhazia and South Ossetia? Or are the situations too different?

It worked fine because most of the opposition was made up of local separatists politicians who benifitted financially from autonomy rather than any real popular support. That meant that when the Georgian tanks rolled things fell apart quickly.

In fact that unification involved Georgia threatening to invade and eventually forcing Adjara's governor to flee to Russia. The same thing that would happen overnight in South Ossetia and Abkhazia if Georgia had a free hand. Its also why Russia intervened.

[GMantis]

I think the best guidelines for when to support succession are those in 1972 Libertarian Party Platform (strange source, I know):

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Hence the independence of Kosovo, for example, should be supported. South Ossetia has major problems with the 3rd point.

I think Kosovo has great problems with 2, and 3 is also questionable. To, be fair the same could be said of South Ossetia.

Kosovo has less freedom than Serbia?

Regarding South Ossetia and Abkhazia, I'm curious as to the actual popular support for independence. To me they seem like Russia's puppet states.

Ossetia and Abkhazia had huge wars with Georgia, with many atrocities on both sides. I doubt that rejoining Georgia has much support.

How did the unification of Adjara and Georgia work out? Couldn't a similar arrangement be achieved with Abkhazia and South Ossetia? Or are the situations too different?

It worked fine because most of the opposition was made up of local separatists politicians who benifitted financially from autonomy rather than any real popular support. That meant that when the Georgian tanks rolled things fell apart quickly.

In fact that unification involved Georgia threatening to invade and eventually forcing Adjara's governor to flee to Russia. The same thing that would happen overnight in South Ossetia and Abkhazia if Georgia had a free hand. Its also why Russia intervened.

So you really think that the Ossetians and the Abkhazians would welcome the Georgian army  after the civil war?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I think the best guidelines for when to support succession are those in 1972 Libertarian Party Platform (strange source, I know):

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Hence the independence of Kosovo, for example, should be supported. South Ossetia has major problems with the 3rd point.

I think Kosovo has great problems with 2, and 3 is also questionable. To, be fair the same could be said of South Ossetia.

Kosovo has less freedom than Serbia?

Currently? Absolutely. Kosovo is basically a mob-ran joke state currently abusing the Serbian population as bad as the Albanians were in he 90s.

[Daniel Adams]

So you really think that the Ossetians and the Abkhazians would welcome the Georgian army  after the civil war?

I really don't think they'd care about replacing Russian troops with Georgian troops. I doubt they like being Russian puppet states.

[afleitch]

My view: When a clear majority of the local population wishes to secede, that they will provide protection for the rights of those who disagree and do not force them to leave, they have good motivations for leaving and that they are willing to be a peaceful member of the international community.

When the next opinion poll shows 50%+ support for Scottish independence I'll bear that in mind