Were the Serbs the better side in the Croatian War?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'd say so. At least the "least bad" side. Remember, Croatia, not Bosnia.

Who did the majority of ethnic cleansing? Who used Nazi imagery and lauded Nazi collaborators as national heroes? Not the Serbs.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Why are you so obsessed with the Serbs?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Why are you so obsessed with the Serbs?

Unfair demonization. See the recent love for Kosovo and the thugs running Kosovo, and Supersoulty once proposing they be "bombed into the stone age."

If the Croats had largely controlled the Yugoslav government in 1991, rather than the Serbs, than some Croat guy would be seen as the largest villain of the time rather than Slobodan Milosevic who would be an unknown only people in the region would care about and no one would've cared about the capture of Karadazic who would've been a very minor player. Rather some Croat thug would be the big deal. In a nutshell: All things equal the Croats were no better than the Serbs, they just had less opportunity to commit blatant atrocities.

[Јas]

If the Croats had largely controlled the Yugoslav government in 1991, rather than the Serbs, than some Croat guy would be seen as the largest villain of the time rather than Slobodan Milosevic who would be an unknown only people in the region would care about and no one would've cared about the capture of Karadazic who would've been a very minor player. Rather some Croat thug would be the big deal. In a nutshell: All things equal the Croats were no better than the Serbs, they just had less opportunity to commit blatant atrocities.

This is an argument that neither side was better than the other, not that the Serbs were the better side than the Croats.

It's also an argument which is hugely speculative, subjective and based on what was an impossible premise (that the Croats could have largely controlled the Yugoslav governement in 1991) rendering any conclusions to be, at best, of very dubious worth. Both sides committed terible and appalling acts. And the Serbs proved themselves capable of this sort of thing again and again after the Croatian War, e.g. in Bosnia and Kosovo. There's a reason why so many nations sought independence from Serbian dominated Yugoslavia.

[Stranger in a strange land]

Why are you so obsessed with the Serbs?

Unfair demonization. See the recent love for Kosovo and the thugs running Kosovo, and Supersoulty once proposing they be "bombed into the stone age."

If the Croats had largely controlled the Yugoslav government in 1991, rather than the Serbs, than some Croat guy would be seen as the largest villain of the time rather than Slobodan Milosevic who would be an unknown only people in the region would care about and no one would've cared about the capture of Karadazic who would've been a very minor player. Rather some Croat thug would be the big deal. In a nutshell: All things equal the Croats were no better than the Serbs, they just had less opportunity to commit blatant atrocities.

that wouldn't have happened, as Belgrade and its accompanying bureaucracy and infrastructure were located in Serbia, and therefore staffed mostly by Serbs. Also, Yugoslavia contained more Serbs than Croats.

[Cubby]

I can't say. But as of right now, I don't like Serbia because of their constant temper-tantrum throwing when anything doesn't go their way (they're always angry at the EU, USA, UN, everyone who recognized Kosovo, etc.) The way they relied on Russia to sabotage Kosovo's independence was annoying (although I was not a huge supporter of independence, I feel the province should be annexed by Albania since 90% of Kosovars are ethnically Albanians, but prefer independence to remaining part of Serbia). Also, the Croats are making an effort to join Europe and become a stable, prosperous country, Serbia could follow their example instead of trying to become a pariah.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Why are you so obsessed with the Serbs?

Unfair demonization. See the recent love for Kosovo and the thugs running Kosovo, and Supersoulty once proposing they be "bombed into the stone age."

If the Croats had largely controlled the Yugoslav government in 1991, rather than the Serbs, than some Croat guy would be seen as the largest villain of the time rather than Slobodan Milosevic who would be an unknown only people in the region would care about and no one would've cared about the capture of Karadazic who would've been a very minor player. Rather some Croat thug would be the big deal. In a nutshell: All things equal the Croats were no better than the Serbs, they just had less opportunity to commit blatant atrocities.

that wouldn't have happened, as Belgrade and its accompanying bureaucracy and infrastructure were located in Serbia, and therefore staffed mostly by Serbs. Also, Yugoslavia contained more Serbs than Croats.

Well yes it's just a hypothetical, but look at how the Croats behaved on their own territory. For example raiding Serbian villages and killing civilians with hammers in order to save bullets.

And the Republic of Serbian Krajina was 100% justified in its rebellion. Anyone who isn't a Croat nationalist Nazi would agree:

[GMantis]

See this map for comparioson:

Obviously, the Croatians have behaved in a most European way.

[Stranger in a strange land]

See this map for comparioson:

Obviously, the Croatians have behaved in a most European way.

I'm guessing Red is Croat, Blue is Serb, and Black is Slovene. What are Pink and Yellow?

[GMantis]

See this map for comparioson:

Obviously, the Croatians have behaved in a most European way.

I'm guessing Red is Croat, Blue is Serb, and Black is Slovene. What are Pink and Yellow?

Black is Italian, Pink is Hungarian and Yellow is Czech.

[Torie]

The Serbs went for the gold BRTD, and lost, and got raspberries instead. You do remember that the Serbs invaded Croatia don't you and grabbed the Eastern end of the country. The Serbs fled from Krajina when Slobo wrote them off.

[Dan the Roman]

The Croats are pretty much the unsung villains of the war, and Tudjman deserved to sit in the dock at the Hague every bit as much as Milosevic did. For the most part however they have gotten off free, while Serbia has had a ridiculous double standard applied to them, where the West intervened in favor of a terrorist insurgency in Kosovo.

That said, there is a reason for this. Croatia voted out the HDZ which has also cleaned up its own leadership, and Croatia has clearly moved beyond its early 1990s behavior. Serbia has not. Second, as much as the Croatians wanted a racially pure Croatia, they mainly wanted to be left alone within its borders. Its hard to see how they could be a worse side, than the Serbs who wanted to ethnically cleanse other people's countries. So the Croatians as nasty as they were, obviously were the better side, and had the Serbs won, disaster would have followed.

As for Kosovo

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I wouldn't call it temper-tantrums. In fact it is all completely justified. The US and the West attacked Serbia in the midst of a counterinsurgency campaign against a group of terrorists whose primary activity was blowing up police stations. The West did this based on atrocity stories almost all of which proved have no basis in reality and to have been manufactured by the KLA. Then Serbia agreed to withdraw from Kosovo in exchange for UN and US guarantees to protect the Serb population and to keep Kosovo part of Serbia. The United States broke its solemn word on both counts. It allowed the Albanians to ethnically cleanse Kosovo far more thoroughly than the Serbs had done in Bosnia, and then when the Albanians declared independence in violation of international law, the US recognized them. I would be very pissed.

As for the Albanians deserving their own state, they already have one. Kosovo has always been a Serb area, and the only reason it is 90% Albanian is because the Albanians ethnically cleansed it of Serbs during World War II when they sided with the Nazis. Albanian claims of victim hood can not be taken at face value, they are one of the nationalist groups that have proven completely incapable of living in multicultural nations, see Macedonia for another example. The handling of Kosovo is one of the darkest chapters in American foreign policy.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I wouldn't call it temper-tantrums. In fact it is all completely justified. The US and the West attacked Serbia in the midst of a counterinsurgency campaign against a group of terrorists whose primary activity was blowing up police stations. The West did this based on atrocity stories almost all of which proved have no basis in reality and to have been manufactured by the KLA. Then Serbia agreed to withdraw from Kosovo in exchange for UN and US guarantees to protect the Serb population and to keep Kosovo part of Serbia. The United States broke its solemn word on both counts. It allowed the Albanians to ethnically cleanse Kosovo far more thoroughly than the Serbs had done in Bosnia, and then when the Albanians declared independence in violation of international law, the US recognized them. I would be very pissed.

As for the Albanians deserving their own state, they already have one. Kosovo has always been a Serb area, and the only reason it is 90% Albanian is because the Albanians ethnically cleansed it of Serbs during World War II when they sided with the Nazis. Albanian claims of victim hood can not be taken at face value, they are one of the nationalist groups that have proven completely incapable of living in multicultural nations, see Macedonia for another example. The handling of Kosovo is one of the darkest chapters in American foreign policy.

I pretty much pointed this out before (explaining to Supersoulty the only "genocide" going on in Kosovo was Serbian security forces killing terrorist thugs.) and I got compared to a Holocaust denier. Ridiculous.