Does this mentality piss you off?

[Keystone Phil]

I think you might be "seeing" something that is not there. Just a thought.

...or maybe he's trying to be a hero by framing the rest of us as zeros. Narisistic much?

LOL

I'm narcissistic? I don't even see how I'm "framing" others as "zeros" so...uh...

[Person Man]

How else do you describe trying to show your superiority through the inferiority of others?

[Keystone Phil]

How else do you describe trying to show your superiority through the inferiority of others?

I'm sorry but how am I suggesting the inferiority of others? I'm saying that the religion haters are doing that with their often condescending commentary.

[Alcon]

I'm sorry but how am I suggesting the inferiority of others? I'm saying that the religion haters are doing that with their often condescending commentary.

I'm sorry about these Religion Haters.  I look forward to striking them down when they pop up, if they engage in actual debate.  While I haven't seen them yet much, I will remain vigilant.  Hopefully, by working together, we can get rid of the bastards.

[Keystone Phil]

I'm sorry but how am I suggesting the inferiority of others? I'm saying that the religion haters are doing that with their often condescending commentary.

I'm sorry about these Religion Haters.  I look forward to striking them down when they pop up, if they engage in actual debate.  While I haven't seen them yet much, I will remain vigilant.  Hopefully, by working together, we can get rid of the bastards.

You have to understand, Alcon. Us dumb folk like to fight for our Lord. We don't have much else going our way. It's almost as if we cling to this God of our's.

[Alcon]

You have to understand, Alcon. Us dumb folk like to fight for our Lord. We don't have much else going our way. It's almost as if we cling to this God of our's.

Yes, I really resent that.  It's all I can think about when I'm sipping my double-shot latte, and discussing how delightfully diverse the new Velasquez-Song family in the next condominium over is.  It tears at me, your belief that really affects me in no way whatsoever.  All I can think about.

In all seriousness, I've never seen you actually "fight" in a religious discussion (or discuss, even) not relating to how victimized you're being.  You seem to be doing a lot more sulking for the Lord than fighting.

[Keystone Phil]

In all seriousness, I've never seen you actually "fight" in a religious discussion (or discuss, even) not relating to how victimized you're being.  You seem to be doing a lot more sulking for the Lord than fighting.

I haven't had to defend my beliefs before? I simply sulk? I'm pretty sure I went at it with you on a number of things regarding my Church but whatever you say. 

[Alcon]

I haven't had to defend my beliefs before? I simply sulk? I'm pretty sure I went at it with you on a number of things regarding my Church but whatever you say. 

Have we had a discussion about that before, or a fight even?  I'll take your word for it.  Maybe a passing message or two, but I don't remember anything sustained.

So, what would you like to discuss?  This topic obviously isn't going anywhere.  Which belief of mine do you find objectionable or wrongheaded?  Present your case, I'll respond.  I'm cool with that.  Maybe it will give you another chance to demonize me by acting as if I've ever implied that you're not intelligent.  Won't that be fun.

[Keystone Phil]

I haven't had to defend my beliefs before? I simply sulk? I'm pretty sure I went at it with you on a number of things regarding my Church but whatever you say. 

Have we had a discussion about that before, or a fight even?  I'll take your word for it.  Maybe a passing message or two, but I don't remember anything sustained.

We didn't debate gay marriage and the Catholic Church? I'm pretty sure you haven't forgotten that one...

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I don't care what your beliefs are. Contrary to popular belief, I don't have a problem with non believers or people that believe something else.

I've only "demonized" you because you act like a know it all and have a very condescending take on religion.

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I love how I suggest that I am the one made to feel beneath others here yet it is turned into me acting superior.

[Torie]

That mentality you decry is more or less justified. Had Islam stayed in the eastern arabian peninsula and never forced itself on people from casablanka to Jakarta to Istanbul it'd be unjustified. But we live in the world where Islam conquered a good chunk of the planet so..

Oy.  Indonesia was proselytized by Sufi missionaries, not forcibly converted.  And, for the most part, initial Muslim conquests didn't want to convert people...converts couldn't be enslaved and couldn't pay the jizya.  Why did the Persians convert?  Because Zoroastrianism kept all of the power and authority in a small group of religious experts and propped up a deeply divided society, while Islam was an egalitarian faith open to everyone.  Why did the people of the former Byzantine lands convert?  The Byzantine government had become so orthodoxy-crazed that the slightest aberration was branded heresy and fiercely punished...anyone with even slightly heterodox views wouldn't think too well of Byzantine Christianity.  Islam was simply more attractive than its competitors.

That's not to say that Islam wasn't spread by the sword in some areas, like the subcontinent and parts of Africa...just like Catholicism spread to the native populations of the New World by the sword.

From what I read, Islam got a foothold in the spice island region because it was advantageous for trade, and a lot of the local princelings signed on. Mohammed was a trader and the Koran served as a sort of uniform commercial code which also was an advantage.

[Alcon]

We didn't debate gay marriage and the Catholic Church? I'm pretty sure you haven't forgotten that one...

Actually, I have.  It having happened seems familiar, but I remember nothing about the debate.  That doesn't mean it wasn't interesting.  It probably just means it was supplanted by my building entry code, or phone number, or something.

I don't care what your beliefs are. Contrary to popular belief, I don't have a problem with non believers or people that believe something else.

Beyond their not perpetuating values you believe to be universal and just, right?  You'd prefer they be Christian, I assume, because you think Christianity is a righteous life and you like seeing that thrive.  Cool.  I feel the same way about my moral beliefs.  I want people to conform to what I see as ethical values, because for us secular folks, morality is really all we have.  There is no certainty of eternal punishment/reward.  There is just living in the here and now.  Maybe that makes, for some of us, the minor injustices of religion a little more tough.  But it does not, hopefully, instill hate.

I've only "demonized" you because you act like a know it all and have a very condescending take on religion.

Nothing in my opinion of religion is condescending.  I don't think you're stupid.  I don't think you're an inferior person.  I don't think I'm enlightened, or that I see things that you can't.

You, however, seem to have a consuming belief that you're right about me looking down on the religious.  Whatever.  I don't, and I don't know how more I can prove that to you than I have.

[Keystone Phil]

  You'd prefer they be Christian, I assume, because you think Christianity is a righteous life and you like seeing that thrive.  Cool.

I don't prefer that they be anything other than what they are. I like people that are different than me, Alcon. Now you're trying to be funny, twisting what I truly believe to make your point.

[Alcon]

I don't prefer that they be anything other than what they are. I like people that are different than me, Alcon. Now you're trying to be funny, twisting what I truly believe to make your point.

You don't wish your system of morality were more accepted, and resent when immoral things are done?  I don't object to belief, but sometimes immorality I see defended by belief.  Not to sound, um, preachy, but again morality is kind of the ultimate ends to some of us secularists.  I don't hate the immorality, but I certainly don't like it or want to be totally passive to it.

I don't think that's an entirely irrational, or even condescending, attitude.  Do you?

[Keystone Phil]

I don't prefer that they be anything other than what they are. I like people that are different than me, Alcon. Now you're trying to be funny, twisting what I truly believe to make your point.

You don't wish your system of morality were more accepted, and resent when immoral things are done?  I don't object to belief, but sometimes immorality I see defended by belief.  Not to sound, um, preachy, but again morality is kind of the ultimate ends to some of us secularists.  I don't hate the immorality, but I certainly don't like it or want to be totally passive to it.

I don't think that's an entirely irrational, or even condescending, attitude.  Do you?

I didn't say that. Just because one isn't a Christian doesn't mean he or she acts immorally. Of course I'd rather immoral things be avoided but that doesn't mean someone has to be a Christian.

[Alcon]

I didn't say that. Just because one isn't a Christian doesn't mean he or she acts immorally. Of course I'd rather immoral things be avoided but that doesn't mean someone has to be a Christian.

No, just like how I don't think someone has to be a non-Christian to be moral.  I just think that the typical Christian position on some issues is immoral, much like you probably think the typical secular position on some issues is (and oftentimes I'd agree with that).  We have the same attitude.

[Torie]

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I guess to fan the flames a bit, I would like to know what the "typical Christian positions" are that are problematical, assuming there is such a thing as a "typical Christian position" on matters affecting human behavior.

[Alcon]

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I guess to fan the flames a bit, I would like to know what the "typical Christian positions" are that are problematical, assuming there is such a thing as a "typical Christian position" on matters affecting human behavior.

I said this earlier, but the only position that comes to the top of my mind where I think mainstream Christianity is immoral is on gay rights.  So, yeah, that's the extent of my "hate."  That versus thousands of soup kitchens and compassion.  It's kind of hard for me to defend the idea that Christianity is bad on a whole, that considered.

Maybe faith is behaviorally, but that's a different matter to me.  The Christian dogma itself is pretty inoffensive to my beliefs, especially as religions go.

[Torie]

Mainstream Christianity is immoral is on gay rights sex. Fixed it. At least the Catholics don't mind gay attractions much; they are just "disordered." And the problem with gay sex, is not gay sex qua gay sex, but sex outside of marriage, and yes gays can't be married, so one ends up effectively in the same place. It is a bit odd, since few place much emphasis on sex outside of marriage; it seems almost a dead letter. So in that sense, I am not sure Catholics care that much about gay sex, nor many others, for the same reason (it is less theological, and more an emotional repulsion to the physical act). In any event, as you know, some mainline denominations are works in progress on this issue.

[Alcon]

Mainstream Christianity is immoral is on gay rights sex. Fixed it. At least the Catholics don't mind gay attractions much; they are just "disordered." And the problem with gay sex, is not gay sex qua gay sex, but sex outside of marriage, and yes gays can't be married, so one ends up effectively in the same place. It is a bit odd, since few place much emphasis on sex outside of marriage; it seems almost a dead letter. So in that sense, I am not sure Catholics care that much about gay sex, now many others, for the same reason (it is less theological, and more an emotional repulsion to the physical act). In any event, as you know, some mainline denominations are works in progress on this issue.

Well, right, but it nonetheless influences policy in the end.  I don't really care about their opinion of gay sex.  I'm not especially fond of it myself.  It's just the policies that I'm concerned about.  And this is the one case I can think of where Christianity directly leads to a policy/social attitude that I think is wrong.  And the social attitude part is important, so I suppose "rights" was an unnecessary word inclusion.  Christianity can't simultaneously maintain that gay marriage is wrong because sex is central to a relationship, and claim that they're not against homosexuality because they're only against sex.  It's not hypocritical, but it is ridiculous.