Does this mentality piss you off?

[Alcon]

I've never said that or led anyone to serious believe that. My problem is that people like yourself attack what I believe in such an arrogant, condescending manner.

I try not to.  I might poke fun at it sometimes, but I do that with everything.  If I'm being arrogant, please point it out to me in specific instances.  But you never have, so I really can't change my behavior/explain my attitude.

We have a situation where either I don't realize I'm being arrogant, you think I'm being arrogant when I'm not, or a little of both.  It's not going to be resolved until we identify the places where you see arrogance.  I can't promise about the other nontheists, but I'm sure the nice ones will willingly comply.  You give me instances -- either on-the-fly or in the past -- and I'll work from there to the best of my mortal abilities.

Side note:  Sometimes I get frustrated with religion.  Right now, I am in particular frustrated with Catholicism over a specific issue affecting a friend.  I try not to bring that into the conversation, but sometimes I might let that slip.  It's not out of hatred of Catholicism; it's just out of fear for my friend.  I'm human too.

Side side note: I know that this is not just about me, but I'm the only one I can control.

[Keystone Phil]

Side note:  Sometimes I get frustrated with religion.  Right now, I am in particular frustrated with Catholicism over a specific issue affecting a friend.  I try not to bring that into the conversation, but sometimes I might let that slip.  It's not out of hatred of Catholicism; it's just out of fear for my friend.  I'm human too.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that you made this clear to me in another discussion. I think it was about gay marriage.

[Alcon]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that you made this clear to me in another discussion. I think it was about gay marriage.

Actually, I think I made that clear when I was explaining that gay rights is the only issue where I think Christianity is doing mostly harm.

So, if you think "Christianity does mostly harm on gay rights matters," "I'm very skeptical of Christianity's veracity and don't believe in it," and "outside of some frustrations I think Christianity probably does good" equals up to "I hate Christianity"...

Well, it doesn't.  So, I'm sorry, you're off-base.

[Keystone Phil]

Actually, I think I made that clear when I was explaining that gay rights is the only issue where I think Christianity is doing mostly harm.

That's what I'm saying. That's where your problem lies with the Church.

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I'm not saying that that's why you hate Christianity but I do think that you're off base in thinking that my faith does harm to people on gay rights. I have my own disagreements with my Church on gay civil unions and such but I don't think my Church aims to harm. I know plenty of instances when those who are gay were loved and helped just as much as anyone else by Church members/officials. So, with all due respect, I don't need to hear from someone who is simply a Church skeptic that my religion mostly does harm.

[Sensei]

I have a grudge against organized religion because of personal experience and the egregious misdirection of power it often employs. There is a lot of potential for good there, but it often goes unnoticed by the figureheads and instead becomes a detriment to progress.

And then there's the fact that many of the thinkers here find that religious zealotry is a dead-end in discussing something and sharing ideas.

agreed.

   My 15-year experience with Catholicism showed me that the Church can do a lot of good, but at the end of the day I didn't believe a word of it sincerely and what became my future dislike of organized religion was exacerbated by several Jesus-freak relatives trying to bring me "back into the light" and being forced to be confirmed and attend mass for over a year on pain of eviction from my house, which is inhabited by my parents who are generally very nice people but suddenly weren't when religion was put into the equation. I don't know what it is about religion that would make parents threaten their straight-A student, non-problem, respectful kid with being thrown out of the house, but it's the same kind of thing which has caused me to embrace this "Hate Religion" mentality Phil mentioned in the original post. What pisses me off is the "Love Religion" mentality which makes people narrow-minded enough to not respect the beliefs of others. Mind you, this doesn't apply to most religious people, because most people are very respectful of alternative beliefs, but that about covers it, I think.   

     I would hate to have to deal with parents like that. My mother is a devout Catholic, but she refused to fascistly force her beliefs on me.

     In fact, the only time that I've ever been to Church was when I was a pall-bearer at my great-aunt's funeral. Until then, I wasn't even aware that everyone else in my family is Catholic.

     These days, I'm more grateful than ever to be afforded the freedom to not be Catholic.

I hear you...
good to see a fellow physics enthusiast on the forum.

[Alcon]

That's what I'm saying. That's where your problem lies with the Church.

I'm not saying that that's why you hate Christianity but I do think that you're off base in thinking that my faith does harm to people on gay rights. I have my own disagreements with my Church on gay civil unions and such but I don't think my Church aims to harm. I know plenty of instances when those who are gay were loved and helped just as much as anyone else by Church members/officials. So, with all due respect, I don't need to hear from someone who is simply a Church skeptic that my religion mostly does harm.

First, I still don't see how you're turning "have a problem with the Church's position on an issue" into "hate the Church."

I didn't say that the Church aims to harm.  I don't think they do.  I think they're mostly good-hearted.  It sucks, and I don't like it, but sometimes you have to tell good-hearted people and institutions that your values say they're doing ill.  That doesn't mean you hate them.  How am I supposed to hate someone with a good heart?  That's really, really difficult, even if I wanted to.  Human emotions just get in the way, as does the fact that there are plenty of heartless things to hate as it is.  My capacity for hate just isn't that vast.

And I didn't say your religion mostly does harm.  I said the opposite.  Three times.

[Keystone Phil]

That's what I'm saying. That's where your problem lies with the Church.

I'm not saying that that's why you hate Christianity but I do think that you're off base in thinking that my faith does harm to people on gay rights. I have my own disagreements with my Church on gay civil unions and such but I don't think my Church aims to harm. I know plenty of instances when those who are gay were loved and helped just as much as anyone else by Church members/officials. So, with all due respect, I don't need to hear from someone who is simply a Church skeptic that my religion mostly does harm.

First, I still don't see how you're turning "have a problem with the Church's position on an issue" into "hate the Church."

Again, this isn't about your problem with a Church position. It's about your constant arrogant criticism (see the thread related to this one).

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On gay related issues, you said that my Church does "mostly harm."

[Хahar 🤔]

Not really, when compared to the massive "Hate Islam" mentality prevalent in this country. Now that pisses me off.

[Albus Dumbledore]

That mentality you decry is more or less justified. Had Islam stayed in the eastern arabian peninsula and never forced itself on people from casablanka to Jakarta to Istanbul it'd be unjustified. But we live in the world where Islam conquered a good chunk of the planet so..

[Alcon]

Again, this isn't about your problem with a Church position. It's about your constant arrogant criticism (see the thread related to this one).

What the heck about that was arrogant?  Irreverent, maybe.  It's an academic subject for me, and I like to approach those with levity.  That doesn't mean I hate the Church (that's a stretch).  Some people use sarcasm or ironic tones to mask contempt, true.  I (and tonloads of other people) use it to make writing about dry topics less painful.  I think that's especially important in a subject with a lot of tensions -- not taking it so freaking seriously.

So, when I say "the Big Fiery" for Hell, I'm not making fun of Christians for believing in Hell.  I was not implying any contempt.  It's a little arrogant of you for assuming that I was.

On gay related issues, you said that my Church does "mostly harm."

And it makes up for it other places, in my opinion.  I'd prefer it didn't do any harm, and maintained its positive impact elsewhere.  But that doesn't mean it does harm overall.  Everyone does some sort of harm greater than the good they do.

[John Dibble]

I'm with Alcon on this - I think you're imagining a lot of this perceived hatred of religion. Yeah, there are some who do but I don't think most of the secular folks here go so far as to hate it.

[Keystone Phil]

I'm with Alcon on this - I think you're imagining a lot of this perceived hatred of religion. Yeah, there are some who do but I don't think most of the secular folks here go so far as to hate it.

And there's contestant number two finally chiming in.

[John Dibble]

I'm with Alcon on this - I think you're imagining a lot of this perceived hatred of religion. Yeah, there are some who do but I don't think most of the secular folks here go so far as to hate it.

And there's contestant number two finally chiming in.

Since when did we have chimes? I thought we had buzzers. Now I'm all confused.

[Alcon]

I'm with Alcon on this - I think you're imagining a lot of this perceived hatred of religion. Yeah, there are some who do but I don't think most of the secular folks here go so far as to hate it.

And there's contestant number two finally chiming in.

Right.

If you're not going to respond to my offer for examples to correct behavior, and just play victim, that's your choice.  But I'm not going to spend more time defending myself if you're not willing to make the effort.

You papist bastard.

[Keystone Phil]

I'm with Alcon on this - I think you're imagining a lot of this perceived hatred of religion. Yeah, there are some who do but I don't think most of the secular folks here go so far as to hate it.

And there's contestant number two finally chiming in.

Right.

If you're not going to respond to my offer for examples to correct behavior, and just play victim, that's your choice.  But I'm not going to spend more time defending myself if you're not willing to make the effort.

You papist bastard.

It's been your attitude in any religion thread really.

[Alcon]

It's been your attitude in any religion thread really.

And you think there's no chance that you're mistaking levity for derision?  You're sure?  Even though I've already outlined my opinion of your religion here, and it doesn't really sound like something I'd have hatred for, you're sure I do anyway?

[Keystone Phil]

It's been your attitude in any religion thread really.

And you think there's no chance that you're mistaking levity for derision?  You're sure?  Even though I've already outlined my opinion of your religion here, and it doesn't really sound like something I'd have hatred for, you're sure I do anyway?

You're right. I'm wrong because I'm saying one thing but you said something else.

[Alcon]

You're right. I'm wrong because I'm saying one thing but you said something else.

No, but you're essentially accusing me of a conspiracy to hide ideological hatred of Christianity.  Apparently, describing religious teachings less-than-100%-reverently is a great indication of my beliefs; my actually describing my beliefs is not.

Which is tantamount to calling me a deceitful zealot, who claims to not hate Christianity but actually does.  You're not offering me any opportunity to prove that I'm not.  So, you must be really sure, or kind of a jerk.  But you also seem unwilling to shed light on your certainty.  So evidently you're really sure that I'm a deceitful zealot, and you're really sure that I'm hopeless.

In short, ouch.

[Keystone Phil]

Here's what I think you are, Alcon, in a short, simplified description: You're a good guy who has a problem with religion (namely with Christianity/Catholicism). You  constantly criticize with your usually unnecessary showing off of your extensive vocabulary and, therefore, "win" an argument.

So bravo to you.

[Alcon]

Here's what I think you are, Alcon, in a short, simplified description: You're a good guy who has a problem with religion (namely with Christianity/Catholicism). You  constantly criticize with your usually unnecessary showing off of your extensive vocabulary and, therefore, "win" an argument.

So bravo to you.

That's a totally fair criticism.  It's also a lot different from calling my jokey, but friendly, rephrasings of doctrine, subdued hatred.

But the only big words I used in the other topic are "benevolence" (a common word in religion that's hard to substitute a shorter word for) and "aversion" (point granted there).  So I still don't get it.  I'm willing to drop it if you like, though.  As long as you don't go along thinking I have some big chip on my shoulder about Christianity, I'm cool.

[Flying Dog]

I'm with Alcon on this - I think you're imagining a lot of this perceived hatred of religion. Yeah, there are some who do but I don't think most of the secular folks here go so far as to hate it.

I think this is flat out wrong, to be frank. I do believe some Agnostics/Atheists hold the belief that they're unfairly chastised and singled out by Religions. That's true to an extent. However, the same is true for Christians. This isn't a one-sided issue, folks.

[The Mikado]

That mentality you decry is more or less justified. Had Islam stayed in the eastern arabian peninsula and never forced itself on people from casablanka to Jakarta to Istanbul it'd be unjustified. But we live in the world where Islam conquered a good chunk of the planet so..

Oy.  Indonesia was proselytized by Sufi missionaries, not forcibly converted.  And, for the most part, initial Muslim conquests didn't want to convert people...converts couldn't be enslaved and couldn't pay the jizya.  Why did the Persians convert?  Because Zoroastrianism kept all of the power and authority in a small group of religious experts and propped up a deeply divided society, while Islam was an egalitarian faith open to everyone.  Why did the people of the former Byzantine lands convert?  The Byzantine government had become so orthodoxy-crazed that the slightest aberration was branded heresy and fiercely punished...anyone with even slightly heterodox views wouldn't think too well of Byzantine Christianity.  Islam was simply more attractive than its competitors.

That's not to say that Islam wasn't spread by the sword in some areas, like the subcontinent and parts of Africa...just like Catholicism spread to the native populations of the New World by the sword.

[Albus Dumbledore]

So it being initially consensual makes it any better? I'd dispute that.

[John Dibble]

I'm with Alcon on this - I think you're imagining a lot of this perceived hatred of religion. Yeah, there are some who do but I don't think most of the secular folks here go so far as to hate it.

I think this is flat out wrong, to be frank. I do believe some Agnostics/Atheists hold the belief that they're unfairly chastised and singled out by Religions. That's true to an extent. However, the same is true for Christians. This isn't a one-sided issue, folks.

I'm talking about agnostics/atheists actively hating on religion on this forum, not necessarily in general. Certainly many of us feel rather chastised by some religious folk, but most of us, at least on this forum, don't hate religion. Yeah, we criticize it when a discussion on the matter has been opened, but that's natural when you hold a different set of values and beliefs. It's not the same thing as hating it though.

[Person Man]

I think you might be "seeing" something that is not there. Just a thought.

...or maybe he's trying to be a hero by framing the rest of us as zeros. Narisistic much?