Intercessory Prayer
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2008, 08:35:48 AM »

Is that when you pray to (or is it through...) a Saint, rather than directly to God [qm]. Apologies; I'm largely ignorant of internal RC stuff.

Theres nothing distinctively Catholic, as jmfcst rightly says (probably my only use of those three words in that order) in praying for either the living or departed.

Intercession through the saints however may be more debatable; that is the 'petitioning' to God through saints, often specific saints on behalf of yourself or others. Often, and this is controversial within some Catholic circles, is praying for intercession through non-canonised people of note or worth. This can all get mixed up in whether or not the dead can infact pray for the living etc.

Many Protestants believe that there is no 'mediator' between man and God (and I think there is something in Timothy about that)

Ah, interesting. Always good to learn something new.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2008, 11:18:28 AM »
« Edited: July 14, 2008, 01:55:47 PM by jmfcst »

Many Protestants believe that there is no 'mediator' between man and God (and I think there is something in Timothy about that)

i have never met a protestant who believes there is no mediator between man and God.

1Tim 2:5 "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

Fair point. But I was referring to the trinitarian notion of God.

not sure I understand what you are trying to say.  But...viewing Jesus as God in the flesh may lead some to think there is no mediator between God and man, but the fact remains that Jesus is still a mediator.

Example:  Normally, a mediator represents both sides, but is NOT a party to either side.  The mediator is independent.

But, since Jesus is literally God in the flesh, his position of mediator is different than a normal mediator, for He is party to both God (since he is God) and man (having been begotten in the flesh).  So, instead of being a separate entity mediating between two separate entities, he is a fusion of both sides (God and man).

Therefore, we do not have a go-between (mediator) in the sense that Moses was to the Israelites- the Israelites didn't have a personal relationship with God, but only had a relationship to God through their relationship with Moses.  Rather we have a personal relationship to God because we have a relationship with Jesus, who, even though he is in the role of mediator, is not a separate entity from the two entities he is representing, but rather is party to both entities since his is actually God in the flesh.

That was the reason Paul stuck in the contradiction "but God is one" when he spoke of Jesus as mediator:

Gal 3:20 "A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one."

Paul's use of a contradictory conjunction when speaking of Jesus as a mediator means that he is an abnormal mediator.

In short:  though we have a mediator "separating" us from God, we are not really separated from God at all because:
1) we still have a personal relationship to God by having a personal relationship to Jesus, since Jesus is God.
2) and...God still has a personal relationship to man by through Jesus, since Jesus is man.

Therefore, since Jesus is the only mediator that is both God and man, there is no way to have a direct relationship to God except through Jesus Christ!

As it is written:  "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."  (John 14:5)
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BRTD
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« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2008, 01:17:32 PM »

Wow, for once I agree with what Islam says.
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J. J.
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« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2008, 01:34:47 PM »

I'll take all the help that I can get.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2008, 10:12:20 PM »
« Edited: July 21, 2008, 10:19:16 AM by Supersoulty »

I have traditionally believed only person can mediate the eternal dispute between imperfect humanity and perfect Deity.  And his name is Jesus Christ.

Not quite.  I am going to assume that you are most directly referring to 1 Timothy 2:5-6:

 5
    For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human,
6
    who gave himself as ransom for all. This was the testimony at the proper time.

What Paul really seems to be slipping into here is a discussion about Jesus' unique role as the only being both God and man, and not discounting the prays of others from directly reaching God.  In otherwords, Jesus' role as mediator does not preclude the prayers of others having power.

 1
    First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone,
2
    for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity.
3
    This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
4
    who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
7
    For this I was appointed preacher and apostle (I am speaking the truth, I am not lying), teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.


Some Protestant groups, and I don't say this critically, I say this matter-of-factly, like to rip single passages from Paul, and ride them.  But Paul is not the easiest person to understand, you need alot of assistance from context.

As Peter tells us (2 Peter 3:15-16):

 15
    And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,
16
    speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

On three occasions (Romans 15:30, Col 4:3, 1 Thess 5:25) Paul explicitly asks the reader of the letter to pray for him and his companions.  And multiple more, he mentions that he is praying for the reader.

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Indeed, they must be praying for us, as we are told in Revelations of how the prayers of the saints, both living and dead, are delivered to God in Heaven:

5:8
    When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

Here, the prayers of the saints (here, the word "saints" is understood to mean all the faithful) are delivered to Jesus via the Saints in Heaven.

And then again in Revelation 8:

 3
    Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.
4
    The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.

As an aside, I've never understood why Revelation doesn't make it impossible to attack the "smells and bells" style of the older Catholic worship service.  Reading this, it becomes obvious why we have incense and alters.

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No orthodox/mainstream Christian argues that we should pray to anyone but God.

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An interesting observation.  Explain.
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JSojourner
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« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2008, 09:49:45 AM »

Soulty,

That was tremendously helpful.  Thanks so much. 

I understand why lots of my fellow Protestants chafe at the idea that the saints (meaning all the departed who died in Christ) pray for and with us.  The First Timothy passage is exactly what causes so much consternation.  But you, and informed Catholics, are not saying that these prayers can redeem us or win favor with God for us.  Christ has already done that.

But too often, I think we pretend the dead are...well...dead.  And in truth, they are more alive than we.  And I have serious doubts about them sitting on clouds, plucking harps and so forth.

At present, I am studying the concept of "paradise" as a place of refreshment when the dead in Christ are in preparation for the completion and perfectio of the Kingdom. N.T. Wright has written a wonderful book about it called Surprised By Hope.

He also has a chapter on the significance and importance of the Ascension...and explains why we err when we disregard its vitality and centrality to the Christian story.
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