does this mentality piss you off?

[© tweed]

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why doesn't she blame God for giving her father skin cancer in the first place rather than thanking him for the successful removal?

[Sbane]

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why doesn't she blame God for giving her father skin cancer in the first place rather than thanking him for the successful removal?

Well people like to focus on the positives rather than the negatives. It is all part of the god delusion of course.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Maybe God's the doctor that removed it .

     Seriously though, it does bug me. Here you see a miracle of medicine, but people have to find God in it. God forbid that human beings can achieve anything on their own.

[tik 🪀✨]

     Maybe God's the doctor that removed it .

     Seriously though, it does bug me. Here you see a miracle of medicine, but people have to find God in it. God forbid that human beings can achieve anything on their own.

That's the perspective we have. There's actually an interesting story in the Bible about a man who was born blind that Jesus heals. The Pharisees (I believe) ask Jesus and his disciples what the man's parents must have done (sinned) that the man was born blind. Jesus replies that the man was born blind so that God's miraculous power could be demonstrated in his healing. It's a curious perspective. In their minds, all can be explained by God's will and power. Even a surgeon's ability to help make someone well is seen as a gift from God to the surgeon, or at least that we have the capacity to help the sick through medical sciences is a gift from God. Any misfortune solved is nothing more than God demonstrating his own benevolence. It's encouraging when you already believe it, but on its own it's disingenuous and insulting to everyone involved.. Eh.

So, to answer the original question, does it piss me off? No, not really. I can understand their perspective. I do dislike the way that person replied though - it came across as utterly manipulative and fake. Of course, that's within my own interpretation.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Maybe God's the doctor that removed it .

     Seriously though, it does bug me. Here you see a miracle of medicine, but people have to find God in it. God forbid that human beings can achieve anything on their own.

That's the perspective we have. There's actually an interesting story in the Bible about a man who was born blind that Jesus heals. The Pharisees (I believe) ask Jesus and his disciples what the man's parents must have done (sinned) that the man was born blind. Jesus replies that the man was born blind so that God's miraculous power could be demonstrated in his healing. It's a curious perspective. In their minds, all can be explained by God's will and power. Even a surgeon's ability to help make someone well is seen as a gift from God to the surgeon, or at least that we have the capacity to help the sick through medical sciences is a gift from God. Any misfortune solved is nothing more than God demonstrating his own benevolence. It's encouraging when you already believe it, but on its own it's disingenuous and insulting to everyone involved.. Eh.

So, to answer the original question, does it piss me off? No, not really. I can understand their perspective. I do dislike the way that person replied though - it came across as utterly manipulative and fake. Of course, that's within my own interpretation.

     The main thing about that mentality that bugs me is I fear that that sort of perspective could lead to more people eschewing medicine & relying on prayer to heal.

     Then again, the idea of a priest absolving one's sins is a comparable mentality (God demonstrating his benevolence through someone), & I don't know how many Catholics stopped going to Church because they figured they didn't need a priest to absolve them (though my grandmother refused to ever confess her sins. She did everything else a Catholic is supposed to do though).

[minionofmidas]

*notes spelling of "luckkk"*

Coincidence? Probably.

[John Dibble]

I think it confounds me a little bit, but it doesn't piss me off.

[12th Doctor]

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why doesn't she blame God for giving her father skin cancer in the first place rather than thanking him for the successful removal?

"The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away."

Fortunately, in this case, he decided to do both.  Not ever catastrophe is worthy of the blame game, but rather we must find a deeper meaning to existence and "God's Plan".  Sometimes, suffering is, in a way, for our own good.  The girl rejoices in what she sees as "God's Plan" and rejoices all the more that God's Plan seems to be that the father get through it.  Perhaps this small incident will convince the father to be more careful, sparing him later death at the hands of the disease, or maybe he will just appreciate his life more because of it.

You simply seem pissed that someone can have such a positive attitude towards the glories of life.

[John Dibble]

You simply seem pissed that someone can have such a positive attitude towards the glories of life.

I don't think that's the case. I think he's pissed that a human surgeon removed the cancer and God is the one getting credit for it. Go back a century or two and if you had cancer you'd be screwed completely, so why is it God finds our generation more worthy of medicine that can cure diseases and help us live longer lives? Is this girl's father more worthy of having his life saved from disease by God than the people who suffered and eventually died from the bubonic plague?

Now, I've got no problem with people who believe in God, but I find it a bit odd that many such people think that every good thing that happens or every disaster that is averted is thanks to the will of their God. This is especially strange when it's a human effort that gives you the result you see. Frankly, given how badly other people get screwed over in life I think this girl's dad was just lucky he was able to get the cancer removed, and even if there's a God I don't think he arbitrarily intervened in his case while at the same time arbitrarily not helping others who need it. When it comes down to it, he was just lucky and this girl should be thanking the surgeon for doing such a good job.

[Alcon]

In addition to what John said...

Perhaps this small incident will convince the father to be more careful, sparing him later death at the hands of the disease, or maybe he will just appreciate his life more because of it.

Why?  If that is part of God's plan, it is part of the Ultimate Justice, so what business do we have complaining of human suffering?  Wouldn't that, because it happened, automatically be the best course of events by your logic?

That begs the question: How exactly does free will enter into this theorem?  Is it not possible that God left this whole thing up to the doctors and medicine, hence 1) the seemingly purposeless suffering; 2) the changes in medicine that have, as Dibble pointed out, have saved a generation when past ones would apparently be "un-worthy."

[dead0man]

As long as their mentality doesn't affect my life, why the hell should I care what their mentality is?  All you can do is patiently explain, once, why that mentality is a little illogical and be done with it.

A much more dangerous mentality is the belief that the system somehow owes you something.

[JSojourner]

We do like to make God in our own image, don't we?  Because we humans can be such petulant, capricious, punitive and manipulative bastards, God must also be.

When someone gets critically ill, injured or dies, it's God's will.  Or God's fault.

So when someone gets well, averts disaster or experiences some other good fortune, we have to quickly restore our faith in the notion that God is capable of being a nice guy after all.

Me?  I believe every good and perfect gift comes to us from God.  That includes gifts wrought by human hands, blessed with skill, reason and intellect.  The problem of suffering and pain is more thorny.  Does God cause it sometimes?  Or does God not cause it, but rather, permit it?

I don't know for certain.  I do know that, while I sincerely respect all the world's religions and find value and good in them, it is the theology of suffering, pain, death and resurrection that (for me, anyway) sets Christianity apart.

My Buddhist friends -- wise, capable, compassionate -- all insist that suffering and pain in this life is preparation for ascendency to a higher plane of existence.  It is part of our mysterious journey to the bliss that is Nirvana.

My Hindu friends -- devoted, sincere, kind -- opine that what we suffer and endure in this life is a result of something sinful done in a prior life.  How we respond to it determines our path in the next succeeding life.

My Muslim friends -- intelligent, faithful, generous -- have told me that they believe suffering and pain are simply indicative of the fact that God is God.  Some feel he plays with us or toys with us to see how we will respond.  Others have a different take.  They assert that God brings and wills such suffering to give us the opportunity to better ourselves and meet the needs of others who also share in the pains of life.

My Jewish friends -- passionate, intellectual, gentle -- tend to feel that it's a total mystery.  We cannot know or understand why God allows suffering.  We can only bear it, hopefully with good humor and humanity.  And one of them has humorously noted, "and we Jews can wonder why it always happens to us!"  LOL

My Atheist friends -- thoughtful, disciplined, decent -- tell me there is no God, but we dare not ignore the suffering and pain in our own lives or in the lives of others.  We do the right thing because it's the right thing, and that is sufficient unto itself.

As a Christian, you may expect me to lash out and insult or denigrate these different points of view.  While I can certainly admit to representing only those Muslims, Jews, etc I personally know or have read...and thereby missing the bigger picture...I don't believe I disparage their responses.  Each has a wisdom and a quality worthy of consideration, emulation and implementation.

That said, I find the Christian God's response to suffering shockingly scandalous and unbelievable.  

The Christian God sees humanity in all its pain and agony.  And no, he/she does not wave a magic wand and make it all better.  Nor does God tell us why.  Sometimes -- LOL -- I think, "Because I wanted to punish you" would make more sense and be easier to swallow!

But the Christian God does put on skin.  He walks among us, suffers hunger and sadness, rejection and torment, humiliation and death.  He is the consumate victim of injustice, spat upon and ridiculed by all.  And before I assert that resurrection is His answer to pain (it is, at least in part), I don't want to miss the reality that He feels it.  He experiences it.  As surely as you or I do.  The common and ordinary indignities and sorrows of life...and the monumental and excruciating agony of trial before a kangaroo court and execution by a most repugnant and peculiar instrument.  That God puts on skin and tastes what we taste, feels what we feel and experiences what we experience...yet remains sinless and holy...shows us an empathy, a love that is almost beyond belief.

In Ravensbruck concentration camp, two Dutch sisters were being processed.  They had been sent there for hiding Jews in their home.  Naked, prodded by rifle butt and bayonet, they both wept.  They were to be shorn, tattooed and forced into hard labor in the most vile of surroundings.  While lined up in the queue, one sister quietly cried and, under her breath said, "Thank you, Jesus".  The other simply cried.  And then turned to her sister and said, "Thank you?  THANK YOU?  For THIS?"  The elder sister barely smiled and said, "Yes sister, thank you.  Thank you, Jesus...for he was naked, too.  He was stabbed and poked and insulted, too.  He knows right where we are now, for he has also walked this way.  He has been here ahead of us."

That true story -- and my first closeup experience with a gruesome, bloody and life-sized crucifix in a Catholic Church -- changed my life and my outlook with regard to suffering.  A couple month's before, my best friend was murdered.  She was a church youth worker, coming home from a Christian concert she had taken some needy kids to.  She unknowingly cut some punks off in traffic.  They followed her home and shot her five times in her SUV, in the driveway of her new home.  She was 25, had been married less than two years and was easily the kindest person I'd ever met.  The depression and anger that followed this crime was almost unbearable for me, a Christian who always believed "God has a reason for these things" and "all things work together for good".  After much stewing, cursing God and entertaining notions of Atheism (which, knowing the fine Atheists in my circle of friends and what good people they were, didn't seem problematic) -- I attended a press conference at a Catholic Church about some architectural changes planned for the building.  I had never seen a crucifix that big, that gory, so close.  But as I studied the tortured Christ, I had my answer.  

"The Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."

I still don't have God's answer to most of my "why" questions.  But in lieu of answering the "why's", He gave me a Who.

[12th Doctor]

In addition to what John said...

Perhaps this small incident will convince the father to be more careful, sparing him later death at the hands of the disease, or maybe he will just appreciate his life more because of it.

Why?  If that is part of God's plan, it is part of the Ultimate Justice, so what business do we have complaining of human suffering?  Wouldn't that, because it happened, automatically be the best course of events by your logic?

That begs the question: How exactly does free will enter into this theorem?  Is it not possible that God left this whole thing up to the doctors and medicine, hence 1) the seemingly purposeless suffering; 2) the changes in medicine that have, as Dibble pointed out, have saved a generation when past ones would apparently be "un-worthy."

First off, a cancer is not some evil that we can fight, so let's separate those two right now.

Second, if the cancer is "part of God's plan" (which is a notion I'm often not too keen on myself) the the cure would also be, so there is no use arguing it.  And advances in medical technology would be part of the plan, and so on and so forth.  I can respect people who have this kind of view of the world, I don't share it, necessarily.

As for the point about the work being that of the surgeon and not crediting God, the surgeon could be an agent of God.

[Alcon]

First off, a cancer is not some evil that we can fight, so let's separate those two right now.

Eh?  Didn't mean to say that...

Second, if the cancer is "part of God's plan" (which is a notion I'm often not too keen on myself) the the cure would also be, so there is no use arguing it.  And advances in medical technology would be part of the plan, and so on and so forth.  I can respect people who have this kind of view of the world, I don't share it, necessarily.

Yes...but you're missing my point.  If suffering occurs, it is part of God's Plan.  Right?  So, being thankful because suffering didn't occur is questioning God's plan--as if God's plan would be inferior if it made us suffer more, or something.  Otherwise it's putting an aversion to suffering over God's plan which, in itself, seems contrary to religious spirit.

So, is it a matter of, "thank you for possibly briefly considering our suffering in your Holy Equation"?

As for the point about the work being that of the surgeon and not crediting God, the surgeon could be an agent of God.

That would logically follow, but again, where does free will enter this?  It is understood that sin is free will.  The assumption that good things are God's benevolence seems to limit free will to an evil/neutral binary system.  See what I'm saying?

[Хahar 🤔]

That whole post was excellent, but I'll deal with the part that applies directly to me:

My Muslim friends -- intelligent, faithful, generous -- have told me that they believe suffering and pain are simply indicative of the fact that God is God.  Some feel he plays with us or toys with us to see how we will respond.  Others have a different take.  They assert that God brings and wills such suffering to give us the opportunity to better ourselves and meet the needs of others who also share in the pains of life.

A very effective summing-up. I applaud you for your perceptiveness, Jim. My personal position is the latter.

[Person Man]

My guess is just that you associate good things with good things and the bad with the bad. Perhaps the story of Joab can put things into perspective for us. Yes. For those of you who know of the story of Joab, that seems to be the best answer to our questions. Another answer could be that Original Sin caused all the pain and misery in the world and that through the love of God, we can bring forth the Milenium and eventually God's ultimate forgiveness of Original Sin after the final judgment.

[© tweed]

I'm 100% sure Allie wasn't thinking of Original Sin when she made her statement.

[JSojourner]

My guess is just that you associate good things with good things and the bad with the bad. Perhaps the story of Joab can put things into perspective for us. Yes. For those of you who know of the story of Joab, that seems to be the best answer to our questions. Another answer could be that Original Sin caused all the pain and misery in the world and that through the love of God, we can bring forth the Milenium and eventually God's ultimate forgiveness of Original Sin after the final judgment.

You're thinking of Job.  Pronounced with a long "O".

Joab was a nephew of King David.

[Person Man]

My guess is just that you associate good things with good things and the bad with the bad. Perhaps the story of Joab can put things into perspective for us. Yes. For those of you who know of the story of Joab, that seems to be the best answer to our questions. Another answer could be that Original Sin caused all the pain and misery in the world and that through the love of God, we can bring forth the Milenium and eventually God's ultimate forgiveness of Original Sin after the final judgment.

You're thinking of Job.  Pronounced with a long "O".

Joab was a nephew of King David.

Hey, you're right. Sorry.

[JSojourner]

My guess is just that you associate good things with good things and the bad with the bad. Perhaps the story of Joab can put things into perspective for us. Yes. For those of you who know of the story of Joab, that seems to be the best answer to our questions. Another answer could be that Original Sin caused all the pain and misery in the world and that through the love of God, we can bring forth the Milenium and eventually God's ultimate forgiveness of Original Sin after the final judgment.

You're thinking of Job.  Pronounced with a long "O".

Joab was a nephew of King David.

Hey, you're right. Sorry.

No worries.  I once preached a sermon and kept referring to St. Paul's letter to the Philippines. 

[Хahar 🤔]

My guess is just that you associate good things with good things and the bad with the bad. Perhaps the story of Joab can put things into perspective for us. Yes. For those of you who know of the story of Joab, that seems to be the best answer to our questions. Another answer could be that Original Sin caused all the pain and misery in the world and that through the love of God, we can bring forth the Milenium and eventually God's ultimate forgiveness of Original Sin after the final judgment.

You're thinking of Job.  Pronounced with a long "O".

Joab was a nephew of King David.

Hey, you're right. Sorry.

No worries.  I once preached a sermon and kept referring to St. Paul's letter to the Philippines. 

That must've been awkward.