Obama booed by some NEA teachers

[Filuwaúrdjan]

If it were up to me, we'd start accelerate the pace of math and science in public schools, following the Asian model. Unfortunately, for a plethora  of reasons, most Americans youths aren't as focused on their studies as the majority of their Asian counterparts.

Just because the attitude of your society towards education is idiotic doesn't mean that you should aspire to change it to one in which attitudes towards education are borderline evil.

[Sasquatch]

I oppose his plan to pay teachers based on how well students do on tests. You can't penalize teachers for having dumbass students in their classes.

Agreed.

[Flying Dog]

Most teachers suck.
[/quote

Rather a strong allegation. Prove it.

Personal experiences. Can't factually prove it. However, most of us know it to be true.

[Torie]

You are not going to attract the best and the brightest,

I don't see how trying to attract people with the highest academic qualifications will help the (or any) education system much. What matters far more is having people who can actually teach; and levels of formal academic achievement are often very poor measures of that sort of thing.

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People motivated mostly by money aren't going to be interested in becoming teachers, full stop. This is a good thing. Such people would make for awful teachers.

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I'm not sure how firing a majority of the teaching profession would help the education system much. Sounds rather Soviet actually.

I don't agree with a thing you said. Teaching is a low prestige job in the US on the secondary level, and I have elucidated the reasons why. Folks of talent and dedication want to be recognized for their talent, and don't want to be associated with drones. In the "good old days," when we discriminated against women, and forced them into teaching and nursing, we did have some excellent teachers (and nurses). Those days are gone. Now we have much lower quality personnel in both professions. My best teachers by far in secondary schools were women. (Some of the men, particularly on the high school level, could barely chew their own food, and that was back in the "good old days." Now, it must be a total horror show.) 

As to those women of high IQ and erudition, the women who helped shape Torie in his youth, these  days they would be MD's, lawyers, business executives, media executives, etc. The system these days is oversubscribed with drones. They need to by systematically purged as the order kicks in - Soviet style, yes, And what is the whip to make it happen? Competition! What a concept! Who knew?

The system needs to be cleansed, root and branch. And what is happening in our poorer neighborhoods as to schooling, is a moral outrage. It makes me ashamed. It undermines the very moral foundations of the rationale of a just capitalistic system, posited on equal opportunity. The status quo must be destroyed. It nausiates me frankly.

[True Democrat]

Merit pay is one idea I certainly think should be explored, of course, I would suspect that John McCain doesn't differ too much from Obama on this issue.

I've talked to some of my teachers about this, and they aren't against the idea of merit pay itself, but rather, they are against individual merit pay, which I think is valid.  Perhaps merit pay by department (at least in large high schools) is the way to go.

[Torie]

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Why oh why? There is only one individual in a classroom, not a "department."  Collectivist thinking here is toxic.

[True Democrat]

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Why oh why? There is only one individual in a classroom, not a "department."  Collectivist thinking here is toxic.

The way it was explained to me (and this was two years ago), is that individual merit pay promotes competition (in the bad way, meaning the possibility of teachers helping students cheat on standardized tests) and puts too much reliance on one individual teacher, when teaching should in fact be a joint effort and responsibility.  It made sense to me when I heard it.

[Torie]

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Why oh why? There is only one individual in a classroom, not a "department."  Collectivist thinking here is toxic.

The way it was explained to me (and this was two years ago), is that individual merit pay promotes competition (in the bad way, meaning the possibility of teachers helping students cheat on standardized tests) and puts too much reliance on one individual teacher, when teaching should in fact be a joint effort and responsibility.  It made sense to me when I heard it.

You do know this test thing is a cloak behind which to hide the rot don't you?  If the test is given by independent sources, and tests competence, and teachers teach to a test, which is about competence, what is wrong with that? The argument is pathetic, as some grand unified theory that we can't evaluate teachers, and dump the incompetents, and reward the competent, and do it on an individual basis. We do it in most spheres of our economy. It is sad we can't do it, where it is needed most. It is a disgrace. It's evil, yes evil.

I don't necessarily think "merit" should be solely a function of test scores anyway. But it is a metric, and an important one. And yes, one must take into account the SES of the classroom, and the delta function, and on and on. It in the end is somewhat subjective. The subjective does not frighten me. You know, the word gets around, as to who the good teachers are, and who the drones are. It is not rocket science.

The main thing however, is to create a system, where we attract far better talent than we attract now, particularly in the "wrong" zip codes. That is job one. And on the domestic side, I can think of little that is more important, and pressing.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

I really don't think that our teachers should be working on commission.

Merit pay makes some sense, but it makes a fundamentally wrong assumption about educational disparities.  A child who wants to learn, with supportive parents, can learn in almost any school with any teacher.  A child who comes from a rough background, with parents who don't care, would likely fail even in a top-notch school with the best educators in the profession.

Many folks around here make disparaging remarks about Memphis City Schools because of low test scores and a bad reputation.  They move out to the County seeking "better schools" and act like Shelby County Schools are some bastion of great educational leadership.  And SCS is fine.  What these people ignore is the fact that the number one school in West Tennessee, White Station High, is a Memphis City School.  White Station serves a very affluent area and has mostly white and Asian students.  Parents are heavily involved and make sure their kids do their homework and have a high expectation of success.  A school is a secondary factor in education, Parenting is job one.

If we really want education reform, let's bring back a teacher's ability to conduct discipline in their classrooms.  Problematic students should be placed in special environments where they aren't allowed to poison the students who are there to learn. We would also do well to provide teachers with the tools that they need rather than them having to pay for thousands of dollars of copy paper and other necessary educational items.

[Torie]

Blaming the parents is a cop out. It solves nothing in any event. We can't remake parents. But we can remake the classroom, by putting top flight folks in it, alphas rather than betas. To do that, we need to do what I suggest. There is no other way.

Sure, if you have a high IQ, and attentive parents, you hardly need teachers at all. In some high school courses, I just read the text book, and skipped class, the teach was that entropic. My grade was often "ASS," and in one case "APP." And my Dad agreed with me, and gave me get out of jail free slips. My Dad was great. I still miss him, after all these years.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

Blaming the parents is a cop out. It solves nothing in any event. We can't remake parents. But we can remake the classroom, by putting top flight folks in it, alphas rather than betas. To do that, we need to do what I suggest. There is no other way.

Your argument suggests that there are a whole lot of incompetent teachers out there, and this simply isn't the case.  Most individuals who go into education do it for a good reason, because they care about kids.  Most teachers are far, far more educated than others in their pay scale.  (Though I would not draw a direct coorelation to a teacher's education and their ability to provide a good education to their students)

No we cannot legislate good parenting, but we can take positive steps towards changing the environment that kids learn in.  Change starts with discipline.  If parents won't provide it, schools must step in.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I don't agree with a thing you said.

I find myself not even slightly shocked.

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That's Nice Dearie.

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Ah, yes, in the "good old days" of the nine-teen fifties when ev-ery street cor-ner had on it bakers hand-ing out fresh bread, when ev-ery one was happ-y and cont-ent, when ev-ery-day  things were id-yll-ic, when ev-ery one knew their place, inc-luding those bl-ast-ed neg-roes, wh-en, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...

Edit: that really *should* have been "fresh, crusty bread". Bah. I'm losing my touch.

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Prove it. Go on. You're the one making the accusation. Go and find some proof that the quality of teachers (or nurses!) was better in your "good old days" than now.

(and by "quality" I don't mean how good their degrees or whatever look )

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This reads far too much like a parody of the most idiotic right-wing "thinking" on education that  I can't take it seriously. I did laugh a few times though.

Feel free to replace "right" with "left" and throw that back at me

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I find it interesting that you think you can blame the poor state of the education system in inner cities districts on the teachers.

Edit: but it isn't just you is it. Curious that such an odd position to hold has become so popular.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Personal experiences.

lol

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Of course you can't. That's because it isn't actually true.

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lol

[Filuwaúrdjan]

...of course the real dirty secret of the American public education is that, actually, it isn't nearly as bad as everyone inside America thinks. And, of course, its other dirty secret is that the major problems that it has are largely reflections of wider problems with the structure of American society. Two nasty little words now: White Flight.

I can see how blaming (in some way or another) the teaching profession is tempting (after all, teachers sometimes aren't as good at the whole public sympathy thing as perhaps they ought to be) but it's a dead end at best and needlessly destructive at worst.

[Hash]

Saying "most teachers suck" is a bit strong, unless you went to a joke school. I'm sure we've all had excellent teachers. I'm also sure we've all had awful (or atleast 'bad' teachers) atleast once.

I, for one, have had quite a few good teachers (+ some excellent). On the other hand, I've had two complete jokes and a few mediocre ones.

[Ebowed]

1. Most teachers don't suck.
2. Obama is quickly revealing himself to be a complete and utter idiot.

[Flying Dog]

Personal experiences.

lol

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Of course you can't. That's because it isn't actually true.

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lol

Prove it.

[Torie]

Here is some data for you Alun, about the decline of the quality of teachers over time. This should not be about ideology Alun. This should be about taking effective action to improve education quality, particularly in the inner cities, where kids don't have the outside parental resources to fall back on, or elite schools, or private schools. I don't consider such an agenda right wing.

[Torie]

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Untrue. It once was true. It is no longer. Check out my link.

[Torie]

I'm glad to know I was missed so much for these 3 days that I've polluted Al's name, but he's Alun, not Alcun

Correction effected. Thanks.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Here is some data for you Alun, about the decline of the quality of teachers over time.

Not really what I was looking for; it's basically what you wrote here with a few statistics and bar charts thrown in for good measure. Of course I suspect that we may have very different ideas about what A Good Teacher is and how the numbers of them can be measured (if at all) so that's not a surprise.

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Oh, but everything political is about ideology eventually

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Your positions on this issue are very right-wing. A fact that has little to do with how sincere or not you are on the issue.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Personal experiences.

lol

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Of course you can't. That's because it isn't actually true.

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lol

Prove it.

Haha. I'm not the one making the, rather extreme as it happens, allegation, am I.

[Flying Dog]

Scientific Evidence. You can't argue with this logic. Don't even try.

http://www.thoughts.com/sdd226/blog/why-teacher-suck--62875/


why teacher suck

1 they eat/sleep when we got to do f****** work
2 they epect us to do 90 pounds of homework aday
3 they plan suck balls
4 if you do something nice they F*** it up
5 they just plan suck balls
7 we have to eat lunch in 10 mins what the F***
 8 they brag how good they were in school then you find there 4th grade report card straight d s with the exeption of an F!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
9 they say they never mist glass again there repot card f in behavur
10
oh irest my case they suck 10x over

[Torie]

Alun, what do you propose to improve the educational outcomes of lower SES students in the near to intermediate term? (Note the emphasis on the word "outcomes.") If you don't like my ideas, what are yours? And if you grab the tarbaby of class size, I will eat you alive, so be forewarned. 

[12th Doctor]

OMG... he is becoming Bush-bama.