Kerry's Tank Ride

[Patunia]

The attack on Kerry and his actions (or imagined actions) in Viet Nam are quickly becoming Kerry's ride in a tank. For those of you old enough to remember, this is in reference to the disastrous image (for the Dems anyways) of Dukakis riding around like a goof ball in a tank.

The simple fact that these stories and accusations will not go away of their own accord raises alot of questions in many peoples minds about the true mettle of Senator Kerry. The real story is not where the truth lies in all this. The real story is the fact that Kerry and his people have had to change the story many times over the years. That Kerry will not release his military records (beyond a page here and there to support his side of the story.)  And all of this on top of his despicable behavior in front of congress on his return from Viet Nam. Kerry continues to obfuscate the matter with his continual changing of the story and his contradictory voting record that would indicate no real support for the military.

What were he and his handlers smoking when they dreamed up the strategy of beating the American people over the head with Kerry's military record? Did they think that his betrayel to his comrade in arms would not generate a response? This is not 1972, when it was far more acceptable to throw rotten tomatos at returning troops.

Did they actually believe that once used as his number one selling point for President that no one would actually attempt to investigate his military record? With new revelations everyday that perhaps Kerry aint all hes cracked up to be as an ex-Navy man Im starting to wonder about the mental capacity of Kerry as well.

Of course if you support Kerry everyone else must be lieing. But such denial flies in the face of the mounting evidence. Very recently retired Rear Adm. William L. Schachte told his story about kerry after keeping quiet for over 30 years. (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20040827.shtml)

Until very recently I had chosen to keep Kerry's military service and his unconscionable actions before congress after his military service seperate. I felt that the former should be left to stand on its own merits while the later was an area for the Republicans to call kerry to task over. But I can not hold that position any longer. This man chose to make his military service an issue, and so he shall hang by it.

If Kerry's only redeeming quality for any prospective voter is that he is not Bush, then that voter needs to take a very hard look at the man they so blindly support. When Democrats stop trying so hard to just win and start trying to get back to the core values of their party, then maybe a real choice for the Dems would be available.

[A18]

When Kerry started trying to connect Bush to the SwiftVets with crap like "a wealthy Republican donated to them," it was clear he was getting desperate.

I think I'll donate a dollar to moveon.org and johnkerry.com. Then I can consider myself living proof that the Kerry campaign is behind MoveOn's anti-Bush effort.

[mddem2004]

Naah.....THIS is the "tank ride" moment of this campaign......

[Patunia]

Naah.....THIS is the "tank ride" moment of this campaign......

Yes. Thats why we see it all over the place and have never ending commentary about it.

How dare Bush show strength during this time of war and have the courage to lead our nation against those who would destroy us.

Dirty bastard.

[A18]

WOAH!!!

You mean each month in the war we ended up with MORE casualties? I thought last month's casualties came back to life....

ANYONE BUT BUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MODU]

I still think the anti-war movement needs to do their research before arguing the death toll in Iraq.  On average, we 2 military personnel domestically due to medical problems and accidents.  Any time we have a war where our daily death toll is less than the domestic rate is a good sign, especially when you consider all the missions they perform on a daily basis.  Less than 1000 (combined military and non-military fatalities) in theater for over a year and a half of action is really a good figure.

[Patunia]

BTW, where can I get one of those dolls? They look cool. I can put it on a shelf next to a box of frozen waffles to represent the 2 canidates.

[zachman]

I agree with mddem, the tank ride of the campaign has to be a stupid mistake that a candidate makes.

[MODU]

WOAH!!!

You mean each month in the war we ended up with MORE casualties? I thought last month's casualties came back to life....

ANYONE BUT BUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hahaha . . . no no Philip.  This is why we must legalize human cloning so we can decrease the number of KIA's.

[Patunia]

I still think the anti-war movement needs to do their research before arguing the death toll in Iraq.  On average, we 2 military personnel domestically due to medical problems and accidents.  Any time we have a war where our daily death toll is less than the domestic rate is a good sign, especially when you consider all the missions they perform on a daily basis.  Less than 1000 (combined military and non-military fatalities) in theater for over a year and a half of action is really a good figure.

You are so wrong. A good figure is to have left that great liberator Saddam in power so he could continue to kill 10s of thousands of those evil peoples who despise freedom.

The fascist Bush has ruined Saddam's great plan of world domination through Michael Moore films.

[Patunia]

I agree with mddem, the tank ride of the campaign has to be a stupid mistake that a candidate makes.

Um, who brought Viet Nam up again?

[CARLHAYDEN]

Actually, the most effective critic of Kerry's Viet Nam stories is Kerry himself.

First, was over the top in his allegations of war crimes in Viet Nam (like 'Ghengis Kahn'), which were patently absurd and false.

Second, he alledged at one time to have thrown his medals over the White House fence, now brags about having them.

Third, his own 'war diary' disputes his earlier allegation of being in Cambodia on Christmas of 1968.

Fourth, his own 'war diary' states he was not under enemy fire until several days after he had suffered the 'wound' which eventually led to his first purple heart.

Fifth, in a speech which he placed into the Congressional Record in 1998, Kerry gives different (and conflicting) details from the story his is giving now about saving the Green Beret.

Sixth, while Kerry roundly denounced Admiral Boorda for supposedly inflating his medals, the Kerry for President web site at one time had him with a Silver Star with a V, which is simply NOT awarded with the Silver Star.

Seventh, when the Washington Post requested that Kerry allow them access to the Navy records (which required his permission), he refused.  

Eighth, when the Washington Post requested access to his 'war diaries' and the draft of a book he had written about his experience in Viet Nam, he refused.

I would not be suprised if enterprising researchers unearth more 'Kerryisms' over the next few weeks.

So, in conclusion, the most effective critic of Kerry's Viet Nam stories is Kerry himself.

[??????????]

This chart is misleading. It would only have any relevance in a 'Night of the Living Dead' flick.

[King]

Naah.....THIS is the "tank ride" moment of this campaign......

That chart is decieving...you can't go anywhere but up...

[khirkhib]

MODU where do you get your 2 a day figure.  I've been looking all over the internet for it.  The number I remember is them saying that it was more likely for a soldier to die randomly in california than it was in Iraq because X people died in california this month and only Y people died in Iraq.  That was dishonest because there are millions and millions more people in california than there are soldiers in Iraq.
I don't have the source it was out monthes ago.  intellectual dishonesty is rampant on both sides but I would like to know where you got the 2 a day background rate.  And remember if that number is true those soldiers are still dying and not being included in the number of causulities in Iraq.  Only soldiers that die in the theater or from wounds caused in the theatre of Iraq are included in the 975 soldiers that have died so we have essentially doubled the death rate in the military including the background rate.

[mddem2004]

Dirty bastard.

Hmmmmm.....Indeed. I think we found agreement on that one.

"How dare Bush show strength during this time of war and have the courage to lead our nation against those who would destroy us..." What? Who are you kidding?

Are you talking about this "War of Choice" in Iraq? The War Bush declared "Mission Accomplished"?

Well lets see......."Those who would try to destroy us..." you say,

1) No WMD's Found (As the UN inspectors were trying to tell us before we invaded....)
2) No Operational Links to Al Queta (Which the 9/11 Commision and the Senate Intelligence Committee concured)
3) "We had it nearly all wrong..." quote from Bush's own hand picked WMD slueth David Kay on the intelligence leading us to believe there were WMD's.
4) A War of Choice that has cost US tax payers nearly $200 billion dollars with no end in sight and no real prospects to extract ourselves from.
5) No real coalition or international support for our pre-emtive war (I'm sorry but the "Coalition of the Willing" is in reality the Coalition of the bribed consisting primarily of nations like Mauritania, El Salvador, Eritrea, and Paleu that are dependent on US aid and remaining in good standing with our State Dept for that aid.....not exactly convincing).

Sounds to me like this president in a time of a real war (ie the Al Queda Movement) has sent us into a quagmire of his own chosing instead of fighting the real enemy.

For this president to land on an aircraft carrier impersonating some "Flight Jock" declaring "Mission Accomplished" while Real pilots put their lives on the line fighting the wrong enemy......thats the tragic "tank riding moment" in this campaign.

And don't think that just because all we are hearing about is the "Swiftboat Liars For Bush" BS in the media, that it makes a bit of difference in this race.

Polling shows that there are two groups that give a damn about this supposed "Issue":
a) Republicans that wouldn't vote for Kerry anyway, and
b) Our supposed "Liberal" media that has never shown a penchant for discusing the real issues that matter to average citizens in a campaign.

If this Swiftboat Liars For Bush BS is the best that the Right has to throw against Kerry........I welcome it. Because you know what?......Average Americans don't give a damn about it when we have boys needlessly dying in Iraq, unaffordable Healthcare, and an economy that is squeezing the middle class.

But then again, I never expected the Right to make their campaign based on the real issues facing America.

[??????????]

Oh yeah, I forgot all the issues Kerry brought up at the Convention.....When I served in Vietnam... Was that a re-run of the 1972 convention that I saw on my TV?

[Patunia]

First off, Ive never personally cared about WMDs. Ive felt since shortly after 9/11 that the best way to get rid of terrorism is to make the middle east an area we dont have to worry. I look back to WWII for an example of how to do that. Im of the opion that (and have been for quite some time) we should invade Syria and Iran as well. Occupy and then transform them. Democracies dont produce groups like Al Queda.

The cost in dollars is irrelevant when it comes to making the US safe. How much is it worth to you to prevent another 9/11?

Dont give a rats ass about international coalitions. Only those pansies who feel that inaction is action feel that way. If France, Germany and Russia dont care about US security, then so what?

And what quagmire are you speaking of exactly? The loss of American lives, while unfortunate, is minimal and acceptable related to the larger goal at hand. We havent even been there 3 years and Iraq is well on its way to becoming a soverign nation again. How long do you think it took us in Japan and Germany?

[MODU]

khirkhib,

Those figures record all that have died due to the war, not just in theater.  That includes the injured which have been flown out to Germany and the US to recover from injuries.  As far as the "2 a day" figure, it comes from the Pentagon itself.  It's a standard figure used for years to be used in statistical models.

[??????????]

khirkhib,

Those figures record all that have died due to the war, not just in theater.  That includes the injured which have been flown out to Germany and the US to recover from injuries.  As far as the "2 a day" figure, it comes from the Pentagon itself.  It's a standard figure used for years to be used in statistical models.

The DoD has been using that method for tallying war dead since the civil war. I personally think it's ridiculous. If you served in the US Army in 1943 and your jeep rolled over in Camp Benning you would have been considered a casualty of WW2.

[mddem2004]

Oh yeah, I forgot all the issues Kerry brought up at the Convention.....When I served in Vietnam... Was that a re-run of the 1972 convention that I saw on my TV?

Obviously you:
a) Didn't see the speech.
b) Didn't read the speech
c) Are simply Parroting what the Right wants you to believe.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following are ALL references to Kerry's Vietnam Service during his Convention speech.

"......And in this journey, I am accompanied by an extraordinary band of brothers led by that American hero, a patriot named Max Cleland. Our band of brothers doesn't march together because of who we are as veterans, but because of what we learned as soldiers. We fought for this nation because we loved it and we came back with the deep belief that every day is extra. We may be a little older now, we may be a little grayer, but we still know how to fight for our country.

I know what kids go through when they are carrying an M-16 in a dangerous place and they can't tell friend from foe. I know what they go through when they're out on patrol at night and they don't know what's coming around the next bend. I know what it's like to write letters home telling your family that everything's all right when you're not sure that's true.

......As President, I will wage this war with the lessons I learned in war.

......I defended this country as a young man and I will defend it as President.

You see that flag up there. We call her Old Glory. The stars and stripes forever. I fought under that flag, as did so many of you here and all across our country. That flag flew from the gun turret right behind my head. It was shot through and through and tattered, but it never ceased to wave in the wind. It draped the caskets of men I served with and friends I grew up with. For us, that flag is the most powerful symbol of who we are and what we believe in. Our strength. Our diversity. Our love of country. All that makes America both great and good.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Three paragraphs and two one liners.

Out of a speech that contained 71 paragraphs and 36 one liners.

Not exactly the "over the top" emphasis the Right wants you to believe.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040729_2014.html

[Patunia]

khirkhib,

Those figures record all that have died due to the war, not just in theater.  That includes the injured which have been flown out to Germany and the US to recover from injuries.  As far as the "2 a day" figure, it comes from the Pentagon itself.  It's a standard figure used for years to be used in statistical models.

The DoD has been using that method for tallying war dead since the civil war. I personally think it's ridiculous. If you served in the US Army in 1943 and your jeep rolled over in Camp Benning you would have been considered a casualty of WW2.

People die for all kinds of reasons while serving seperate from enemy fire. And anyone who serves and dies while serving is no less a soldier to me whether they died from gun fire or a meteorite falling on their head. I think I know what youre trying to say States, but it doesnt sound that way.

[??????????]

khirkhib,

Those figures record all that have died due to the war, not just in theater.  That includes the injured which have been flown out to Germany and the US to recover from injuries.  As far as the "2 a day" figure, it comes from the Pentagon itself.  It's a standard figure used for years to be used in statistical models.

The DoD has been using that method for tallying war dead since the civil war. I personally think it's ridiculous. If you served in the US Army in 1943 and your jeep rolled over in Camp Benning you would have been considered a casualty of WW2.

People die for all kinds of reasons while serving seperate from enemy fire. And anyone who serves and dies while serving is no less a soldier to me whether they died from gun fire or a meteorite falling on their head. I think I know what youre trying to say States, but it doesnt sound that way.

To die in an accident or incident outside of regular combat should NOT be included in war casualities. The current system I find ridiculous.

[Patunia]

khirkhib,

Those figures record all that have died due to the war, not just in theater.  That includes the injured which have been flown out to Germany and the US to recover from injuries.  As far as the "2 a day" figure, it comes from the Pentagon itself.  It's a standard figure used for years to be used in statistical models.

The DoD has been using that method for tallying war dead since the civil war. I personally think it's ridiculous. If you served in the US Army in 1943 and your jeep rolled over in Camp Benning you would have been considered a casualty of WW2.

People die for all kinds of reasons while serving seperate from enemy fire. And anyone who serves and dies while serving is no less a soldier to me whether they died from gun fire or a meteorite falling on their head. I think I know what youre trying to say States, but it doesnt sound that way.

To die in an accident or incident outside of regular combat should NOT be included in war casualities. The current system I find ridiculous.

I would disagree with you then. To serve is to serve.

[khirkhib]

Do you have a link.  And yes I know I said that it included people that were injured in the theatre and were flown to Germany or home to recover but died.

Patunia which should we take on first Syria or Iran and how far into Bush's next administration.  2005? 2006?  Iran will be trickier because it does have a population of like 70 million compared to Iraq with 25 million and Afghanistan with 30 million.  Syria might be fairly easy they have a population of about 20 million but it is a small country and we can base in Iraq and Isreal.  Though we do have Iran surrounded as well with Iraq and Afghanistan on both sides.  I wondered if they are worried.