Amendment to End the Budget Requirement [Debate open]

[Meeker]

Amendment to End the Budget Requirement

1. Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution is hereby repealed.


Sponsor: Colin

[Хahar 🤔]

No-brainer.

[Colin]

We've tried this before so hopefully this will pass now. Let's just make what we always do official and get rid of the budget as an official part of the Atlasian political process.

[Torie]

We've tried this before so hopefully this will pass now. Let's just make what we always do official and get rid of the budget as an official part of the Atlasian political process.

If one does that, then how can one make any intelligent choices about issues that cost money?

[Хahar 🤔]

We've tried this before so hopefully this will pass now. Let's just make what we always do official and get rid of the budget as an official part of the Atlasian political process.

If one does that, then how can one make any intelligent choices about issues that cost money?

With a workable budgetary system.

[Colin]

We've tried this before so hopefully this will pass now. Let's just make what we always do official and get rid of the budget as an official part of the Atlasian political process.

If one does that, then how can one make any intelligent choices about issues that cost money?

Then fine, write up a budget. I will withdraw this as soon as someone comes up with a workable budget and swears before me, all of Atlasia, and whatever higher authority/Hollywood celebrity he believes in, that he will continue to update this budget whenever there are changes.

We play a game, the true currency of Atlasia is funny money, Monopoly dollars, we're, mostly, a thought experiment/election sim. Running this place can be hard enough as it is with the egos and hassles present in the system, the budget is just one more thing that is thrown to the wayside and never used because it is too complex.

We always have people like this, "We need a budget. How else will be know how much we spend? This is an outrage." etc. What I have never seen come from any of these people is an actual budget. If you want it so much then why don't you put it together? By you I mean anyone who is opposed to this idea not specifically you. The last time this was voted down people were going to change, budgets would be put in place, change would happen! Well shucks it looks like that never happened now did it. Those people learned that, because of the inherent differences in tax policy, estimated population size, program expeditures, etc. it was almost certainly impossible to create a budget for Atlasia. So if it is a near impossibility why do we keep this requirement within our constitution?

Also just because it is no longer required does not mean that some soul seriously lacking in free time cannot make up a budget on his own and submit it to the Senate for their approval. It just gets rid of the requirement to do so.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

We've tried this before so hopefully this will pass now. Let's just make what we always do official and get rid of the budget as an official part of the Atlasian political process.

If one does that, then how can one make any intelligent choices about issues that cost money?

I used to be one of the biggest opponents of killing Article 1 Section 8.  But here's the simple reason why it has to go: It spells out a very specific procedure for crafting a budget that, essentially, makes crafting a constitutional budget impossible.

At first, my opposition was based on the idea that I felt something needed to be in the constitution to call for a budget, even if it doesn't specifically require one yearly (much like the "from time to time" wording that calls for State of the Union Addresses).

Of course, after reading the constitution more closely, there's already a line in Article 1 that requires, essentially, a budget.  Or an accounting of the money spent.

I truly believe we can draft a budget that is relatively simple, based on existing U.S. numbers.  And that we can create a process that is not just a simple vote and dismissal of the budgetary work, but something where we can have a basic philosophical discussion about whether or not  we should be cutting services to balance the books or raise taxes...or just run up the debt.

[Torie]

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That is the case for it. Otherwise, everything in life is free. That is not the way it works out there.

[Meeker]

I for one am opposed to this. I think that with the possible reinstitution of the Game Moderator the budget may be a workable and fun part of the game at some point. Until that time we can just continue to ignore this section of the Constitution.

[Хahar 🤔]

I for one am opposed to this. I think that with the possible reinstitution of the Game Moderator the budget may be a workable and fun part of the game at some point. Until that time we can just continue to ignore this section of the Constitution.

The system is too specific and complex. We can make a new budget with a new system instead.

[Robespierre's Jaw]

I wonder where the Atlasian voters think I stand on the National Budget issue?

I agree with the statements made by fellow Senator Meeker. I feel that if the Moderate Administration recreates a Game Moderator, the idea known to us all as a National Budget may be workable. That's if we Senator's can get off our asses and work to create such a project. I know creating one would be hard work, but it's not as impossible as Mr. Porter becoming Southeast Senator.

[Robespierre's Jaw]

"Senator" Porter, you claim that the Atlasian economy is staggering due to the Atlasian Government not proposing or should I say creating a balanced budget. You do know that the Atlasian Government has not, and I repeat has not created a budget since 2005 I believe, long before you or I turned up.

I love your logic Senator, if we create a balanced budget, everything will come up roses. Haven't you heard of high oil prices, high inflation or close to it, high grocery prices and in my case high interest rates, which have all contributed to the economy on the brink of recession.


The Senate has stalled on this amendment long enough, likewise with this whole institution known as the "Senate" for quiet some time, and I call a motion to vote upon this amendment, proposed by Senator Wixted.

[DownWithTheLeft]

I remember sponsoring this back during my tenure, has it failed a lot of times or something?

[Robespierre's Jaw]

I was never and am no longer a senator. So I cannot comment.

But according to Southeast magistrate Dibble you are the Southeast's legitimate Senator, so yes "Senator" Porter you can comment. But the question is why you choose not to comment on the obvious, which is all presently true? Are you afraid of being proven wrong? Or if I told you Ronald Reagan was a bad President .

[DownWithTheLeft]

I was never and am no longer a senator. So I cannot comment.

But according to Southeast magistrate Dibble you are the Southeast's legitimate Senator, so yes "Senator" Porter you can comment. But the question is why you choose not to comment on the obvious, which is all presently true? Are you afraid of being proven wrong? Or if I told you Ronald Reagan was a bad President .

no, I am not afraid of being proven wrong. I tend to give in to things and that is what I did.

So, I am the senator from the southeast as of now. Right?

OMG you have to be kidding me.  You just said you understand you were not the senator unless Duke reappointed you, and then you asked that question

[Robespierre's Jaw]

Before this gets lost in the avalanche about to bombard us, thanks to the latest argument between DWTL and Mr. Porter:

The Senate has stalled on this amendment long enough, likewise with this whole institution known as the "Senate" for quiet some time, and I call a motion to vote upon this amendment, proposed by Senator Wixted.

[DownWithTheLeft]

I introduced this back in my old term, don't know what happened to it.  Anyway, it has my full support.

[Ebowed]

It's always the newbies that oppose this, and the people who have had to approve a budget before that support scrapping it.

Oh well.  You guys will learn.

BTW, the federal government has been ignoring the requirement for more than a year, probably longer.  Generally when we're openly ignoring the Constitution it's probably best to change it so we can retain some sense of legitimacy.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

I will state again, for the record, that I wholeheartedly support removing this existing budget requirement so a workable budget process can finally be created.

I encourage Senators to vote in the affirmative here.

[Torie]

I would prefer seeing the alternative before junking what we have. Maybe we should just start with the US budget, in a simplified form. We need to do something, or we will be stuck with chatting on substantive matters about social legislation (drugs, sex, etc.) and foreign policy stuff.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

I would prefer seeing the alternative before junking what we have. Maybe we should just start with the US budget, in a simplified form. We need to do something, or we will be stuck with chatting on substantive matters about social legislation (drugs, sex, etc.) and foreign policy stuff.

Unfortunately, that's been the status of the Senate for the past two years or so, because no one is willing to touch the budget if touching the budget is currently unconstitutional.

I tried about two Senates ago to reshape the End of the Budget Requirement into something more workable, but I was eventually thwarted by the all-or-nothing set.  It seems to me, then, that the only real way to get this done is to remove the requirement, craft a budget, and then leverage that as support to codify a workable process.

It's going to take trial-and-error to figure this one out.

[Torie]

Well, I suppose that since this section of the Constitution is ignored anyway, keeping it around as leverage to come up with something else has no value, since there is no such leverage, or something like that.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Well, I suppose that since this section of the Constitution is ignored anyway, keeping it around as leverage to come up with something else has no value, since there is no such leverage, or something like that.

Believe me, I forced a temporary Senate shut down over the issue back around February or so, and all that it accomplished was... shutting the Senate down.

[Colin]

I'll bump this up before beginning the final vote. If anyone has anything to add to the debate please say it now or forever hold your peace.

[Meeker]

I've come to the conclusion that there's nothing to stop us from doing a budget in the future even if it isn't required by the Constitution, so I suppose we might as well get rid of this archaic relic.