Will gay marriage be a major issue in the 2008 presidential election?

[Torie]

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Well, look at the bright side, it could be worse. You could live in Saudi and get stoned to death, or in Iran, which according to the its President, has no gays, which has a certain ominous sound to it, doesn't it?

Phil, I have read in a variety of places, that about 50% of Catholic priests are gay, although some of those obviously are celibate. That is also a figure Andrew Greeley uses, and one a serious Catholic who knows a lot about Church affairs on another forum I participate in, also thinks is about right. What do you think the percentage it?

[Brittain33]

Ok well just because it was the norm in certain communities to remain in the closet doesn't mean it's official Church teaching or even suggested today. And to suggest that the priesthood is "full of gays" is just further proof of your uneducated nature. Take your hostility and ignorance towards my Church elsewhere. Thanks.

I have a great deal of respect for the church and its leaders, particularly Pope John Paul II, who I view with tremendous respect and affection as a Jew. As for the policies toward gays, I can only seem them in light of the pain they cause my partner, who was born and raised in the Church and feels a strong attachment to it but who does not have a full place within the communion because of current policies.

[second paragraph removed]

[Alcon]

I don't care if it's "appealing" or not. It's not the job of the Church to compromise ideals for that which is "appealing" to the masses.

(You edited your post, so these seems tangential, but it isn't)

I'm not sure why you're being so reactionary.  I know a closeted Catholic kid who essentially feels compelled to go into service to the Church because he'll never be able to have a meaningful relationship or children.  In fact, the official Catholic Church positions on the matter essentially say, suck it up, serve God, make God your wife.  What better way to do that?

Hundreds of Catholic priests in the U.S. have died of HIV.  Either they're shooting black tar heroin, many of them are closeted homosexuals attracted to the cloth to serve the only love they're allowed to have.  Not letting people ever physically express love is going to have repercussions in some instances, obviously.

[Aizen]

Back to the pie vs cake argument for a second, I really think pie would be a much better choice for any type of wedding whether it be gay or straight. I'm tired of everyone conforming to society's standards about what type of dessert is most acceptable to ceremonial occasions - particularly weddings. It's always cake and I for one have had enough of it. Pie tastes much better and would make your wedding "cooler". Pseudo-cakes like the ones that brittain fellow had would be fine as well. Just as long as it isn't your cook-book cake. In fact, if my wife would choose a boring cake over pie, I would divorce that wench on the spot.

[Joe Republic]

Marriage is a religious ceremony. I am all for civil unions and extending benefits to gays and all, but it's the word marriage that some seem so determined to get that bothers me. MARRIAGE has always been a religious union between a man and a woman. I wish people would respect that rather than saying the word is broken and needs fixing.

Several decades ago:

"'Gay' means happy or pleasant. I am all for them describing themselves as 'homosexuals' and all, but it's the word gay that some seem so determined to get that bothers me. GAY has always meant happy or pleasant. I wish people would respect that rather than saying the word is broken and needs fixing."

[Keystone Phil]

Cardinal Law also accused people who criticized the Church for covering up for child molesters as being "anti-Catholic," too. It worked for a time. It wasn't any more true then than it is now, in this thread.

Uh, I don't think we should take Cardinal Law as respectable voice on this issue. I know many Catholics don't.

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I do defend my Church's position. I won't defend your ignorance though. I won't defend the thought that the priesthood is "full of gays" just so you can try to make a point. Just because you have to "live with" something everyday doesn't give you the right to spew uneducated nonsense. You have a problem with my Church because we don't recognize your marriage so you want to counter it with half truths. Childish.

[Keystone Phil]

Phil, I have read in a variety of places, that about 50% of Catholic priests are gay, although some of those obviously are celibate. That is also a figure Andrew Greeley uses, and one a serious Catholic who knows a lot about Church affairs on another forum I participate in, also thinks is about right. What do you think the percentage it?

And how is that information gathered?

[Brittain33]

'Gay' means happy or pleasant. I am all for them describing themselves as 'homosexuals' and all, but it's the word gay that some seem so determined to get that bothers me. GAY has always meant happy or pleasant. I wish people would respect that rather than saying the word is broken and needs fixing.

Ha. Good luck with that. I'd love people to stop using "impact" as a verb.

[Torie]

Phil, I have read in a variety of places, that about 50% of Catholic priests are gay, although some of those obviously are celibate. That is also a figure Andrew Greeley uses, and one a serious Catholic who knows a lot about Church affairs on another forum I participate in, also thinks is about right. What do you think the percentage it?

And how is that information gathered?

I don't know. I could inquire if you are interested. Obviously, it must be some sort of guesstimate, unless Rasmussen has done a poll or something.

[Keystone Phil]

I don't care if it's "appealing" or not. It's not the job of the Church to compromise ideals for that which is "appealing" to the masses.

(You edited your post, so these seems tangential, but it isn't)

I'm not sure why you're being so reactionary.  I know a closeted Catholic kid who essentially feels compelled to go into service to the Church because he'll never be able to have a meaningful relationship or children.  In fact, the official Catholic Church positions on the matter essentially say, suck it up, serve God, make God your wife.  What better way to do that?

Hundreds of Catholic priests in the U.S. have died of HIV.  Either they're shooting black tar heroin, many of them are closeted homosexuals attracted to the cloth to serve the only love they're allowed to have.  Not letting people ever physically express love is going to have repercussions in some instances, obviously.

First thing first, I didn't edit my post.

Secondly, I don't see how my position is "reactionary." Whether it's this issue or any other, I don't believe my faith ought to change it's ideals to fit popular opinion. Sorry.

My official Church doctrines don't say for your friend to "suck it up and make God your wife." My Church doesn't tell your friend to join the priesthood to settle this. I am so very sorry that your friend has a warped way of viewing his vocation and has convinced you that that's what his Church wants.

I'm especially saddened by the fact that you decided to use HIV deaths as a reason why there are gay priests, Alcon. I expect better from you. I suppose you're allowed to take this shots though since you're "pro gay."

[Keystone Phil]

I'm glad you acknowledge that, instead of pretending the Church has a place for gay people, because it doesn't. Aside from in the priesthood. Or in dishonest marriages.

You're a real piece of sh-t. No use arguing anything further with you if you want to take such cheap shots.

The weaker your case, the messier the language gets.

The weaker my case gets? Please. You're the one taking the cheap shots about how I "acknowledge" that gays don't have a place in my Church. You're nothing but a bitter person.

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Doesn't mean you don't dislike my Church, sweetums.

And for you to attack me by saying this isn't about me, the same person who supports you being granted a civil union with full benefits from the government, shows how low you are.

[Keystone Phil]

denial

Yep, we're familiar with this in Boston.

Mature debate. See, we people who have been around on this forum know not to do that to someone else's quote. Learn the ropes a bit.

I'm especially saddened by the fact that you decided to use HIV deaths as a reason why there are gay priests, Alcon. I expect better from you. I suppose you're allowed to take this shots though since you're "pro gay."

Unless they're hemophiliacs or (as he acknowledged) heroin users, what other conclusion are you supposed to draw?

Assuming that you aren't starting from the point that No Priests Are Gay and all evidence must bend to fit that...

I'm not saying no priests are gay. I'm saying that being HIV Positive doesn't necessarily mean someone is gay.

[Brittain33]

I'm glad you acknowledge that, instead of pretending the Church has a place for gay people, because it doesn't. Aside from in the priesthood. Or in dishonest marriages.

You're a real piece of sh-t. No use arguing anything further with you if you want to take such cheap shots.

They aren't cheap shots, they are accurate statements of the closeted options for gay men until the last few decades, and the only ones available now if you want to stay true to doctrine.

Lest you think this is specific to Catholicism, I will happily say the picture's no brighter in Orthodox Judaism or the Pentecostal churches, nor is Islam the promised land.

Again: you're happy to talk about my life in vivid detail and make criticism. If you're too offended when this is turned around to you, you know what they say about people who can't stand the heat. Be a man, Keystone Phil, and defend yourself.

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I'm a bystander on church doctrine.

You can't or won't respond to the substance of what I've said, so instead, you're calling me names and talking about my motivations, my moods, and various other things that do nothing to undermine what I'm actually saying.

[Alcon]

First thing first, I didn't edit my post.

Really?  I must have confused it with another.  Sorry.

Secondly, I don't see how my position is "reactionary." Whether it's this issue or any other, I don't believe my faith ought to change it's ideals to fit popular opinion. Sorry.

I'm not advocating popular opinion; I'm advocating what I consider moral.  I don't give a crap what proportion of the population agrees with me.

My official Church doctrines don't say for your friend to "suck it up and make God your wife." My Church doesn't tell your friend to join the priesthood to settle this. I am so very sorry that your friend has a warped way of viewing his vocation and has convinced you that that's what his Church wants.

Not literally.  Obviously I was being hyperbolic, but I'd suggest you look at the Cathechism on this matter.  Gay Catholics are called to "fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."  It says to spend a life of chastity and servitude to God.  That may not explicitly say "join the priesthood," but it's hardly discouraged.

In any case, in 1999, the Kansas City Star conducted a random survey of priests about sexual orientation.  The response rate was a lowly 27%.  Only 75% indicated they were heterosexual.  A few years earlier, a Franciscan priest in New Jersey conducted a similar survey with a much higher response rate.  There, about 45% indicated they were gay.

Overall, a cross-selection of estimates from various sources - conservative and otherwise - averages out to about a third identifying as consciously homosexual.  So, there's your "nonsense."

I'm especially saddened by the fact that you decided to use HIV deaths as a reason why there are gay priests, Alcon. I expect better from you. I suppose you're allowed to take this shots though since you're "pro gay."

What is that supposed to mean?  You're offended that I've said that HIV disproportionately affects the homosexual population, or you're offended that I assume that most of those cases were contracted through homosexual sex?

[Keystone Phil]

Phil, I have read in a variety of places, that about 50% of Catholic priests are gay, although some of those obviously are celibate. That is also a figure Andrew Greeley uses, and one a serious Catholic who knows a lot about Church affairs on another forum I participate in, also thinks is about right. What do you think the percentage it?

And how is that information gathered?

I don't know.

Great source.

They aren't cheap shots, they are accurate statements of the closeted options for gay men until the last few decades, and the only ones available now if you want to stay true to doctrine.

Lest you think this is specific to Catholicism, I will happily say the picture's no brighter in Orthodox Judaism or the Pentecostal churches, nor is Islam the promised land.

Again: you're happy to talk about my life in vivid detail and make criticism. If you're too offended when this is turned around to you, you know what they say about people who can't stand the heat. Be a man, Keystone Phil, and defend yourself.

I'm not about talking about your life in vivid detail and make criticism about it. I don't criticism "gay" life.

Let me let you in on a little something, my friend. Regardless of whether people like me or not on our little forum, people who actually know me and have been around can tell you that I most certainly defend myself. I don't back down. I don't need you to tell me to be a man. Just because I don't like your vicious rhetoric doesn't mean I can't take the heat. Arguing with you is fairly pointless though since you are so set in your hatred towards my Church and so consumed with your ignorance. Good day, honeybuns. It's been a fabulous debate.

[Alcon]

Phil: Torie's source is almost certainly the Crangle (New Jersey) study.

[Keystone Phil]

Not literally.  Obviously I was being hyperbolic, but I'd suggest you look at the Cathechism on this matter.  Gay Catholics are called to "fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."  It says to spend a life of chastity and servitude to God.  That may not explicitly say "join the priesthood," but it's hardly discouraged.

Oh, my friend, I see what your problem is. You see, we're all called to do that. To say that that suggests the priesthood to just gays is really silly. I'm sorry you read it that way.

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A Franciscan priest conducted a survery. Oh wow. And being the polling whiz that you are, I'm shocked that you believe this is credible.

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Based on what? Faulty polling from almost ten years ago. Ok...

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I'm offended that you are allowed to basically say that HIV/AIDS is a gay man's disease. Now if the distinguished former Senator Santorum or I suggested anything like that...

[afleitch]

A few points here as this issue is often done to death.

1. Phil - shut up, or at least think before you speak you're embarassing yourself and fellow members of 'your' Church. You're borderline hysteric.

2. I know a priest quite well who is gay. He is a priest above all that and has said to me he would have entered the priesthood regardless of his sexuality as that was his calling. I know it, he know's it and some of the parish know's it but he has to watch his back because all it takes is a few whispers and a vindictive parishoner and he may not be saying Mass next Sunday.There is a code of silence in his church to protect him because he is a wonderful priest.

He defended a fellow 'straight' priest who advised a gay parishioner to re-consider his marriage to a woman and the damage that was doing to both himself and his wife. That priest was removed from the parish.

3. It is important to seperate lay Catholics and even priests from the bishops and the cardinals et al. Priests are closer to the people and I think if you asked them privately if they knew any gay priests they would simply nod and say it doesn't matter.

[Brittain33]

I'm offended that you are allowed to basically say that HIV/AIDS is a gay man's disease. Now if the distinguished former Senator Santorum or I suggested anything like that...

He didn't say it's a gay man's disease. He specifically said that they may well be heroin users. The fact that priests are assumed NOT to be heroin users, or women who sleep with men who have sex with men, or sex workers, or people who all had unlucky blood transfusions prior to 1986, is what leaves homosexuality as the only risk factor left.

Saying HIV is a gay man's disease is a way to say it doesn't matter to "normal Americans" or that all gay men have HIV or some such. Saying that HIV is associated with male homosexuality, particularly among the older generation, is just common sense. It's all about the context and it's perfectly clear what the context was here.

[Brittain33]

For anyone coming to this thread late, I have deleted most of my posts, albeit after the damage was done. When it became clearly a discussion only between me and Phil, and one on something that is both personal and off-topic, I may as well get out ahead of the moderators and go to work.

[Keystone Phil]

A few points here as this issue is often done to death.

1. Phil - shut up, or at least think before you speak you're embarassing yourself and fellow members of 'your' Church. You're borderline hysteric.

I'm borderline hysteric? How the hell am I embarrassing myself and my Church? Because you, a gay Catholic, don't like what I'm saying? I've been more than respectable until someone comes along and starts taunting. Let's comb through the rest of your post as see what you have to say about him though...

Right, nothing. Predictable.

Frankly, Andrew, I am sick and tired of being the easy target especially on this issue and how our Church deals with it. I respect you but after telling me to "shut up" and saying that I'm making a fool out of myself when I'm being just as tolerant as many others (again, read up on my views concerning civil unions or maybe you ought to shut up) is disappointing.

He didn't say it's a gay man's disease. He specifically said that they may well be heroin users. The fact that priests are assumed NOT to be heroin users, or women who sleep with men who have sex with men, or sex workers, or people who all had unlucky blood transfusions prior to 1986, is what leaves homosexuality as the only risk factor left.

I'm sorry but maybe you can refresh my memory. Can men contract HIV after sleeping with women?

[Brittain33]

I'm sorry but maybe you can refresh my memory. Can men contract HIV after sleeping with women?

Yes, but it is much more difficult than it is for women to contract from a men, and also more difficult than it is for a man or a woman to contract it via unprotected receptive anal sex.

It's somewhat like getting lung cancer as a second-hand smoker or as a non-smoker. The risk is there, but it's so much smaller as to affect the epidemiology. There are other reasons why it is more prevalent among gay men in America, including that it arrived in that population first and spread there before it was widely understood and diagnosed, and that has always determined the shape of the epidemic here as opposed to in southern Africa or in Russia.

[Keystone Phil]

I'm sorry but maybe you can refresh my memory. Can men contract HIV after sleeping with women?

Yes, but it is much more difficult than it is for women to contract from a men, and also more difficult than it is for a man or a woman to contract it via unprotected receptive anal sex.

It's somewhat like getting lung cancer as a second-hand smoker or as a non-smoker. The risk is there, but it's so much smaller as to affect the epidemiology. There are other reasons why it is more prevalent among gay men in America, including that it arrived in that population first and spread there before it was widely understood and diagnosed, and that has always determined the shape of the epidemic here as opposed to in southern Africa or in Russia.

Thank you. I am satisfied with the answer.

[afleitch]

I'm borderline hysteric? How the hell am I embarrassing myself and my Church? Because you, a gay Catholic, don't like what I'm saying?

No, because of how you tried to string it together.

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I didn't have a problem with what he was saying. He made some valid points that you tooks cheap shots at rather than trying to answer.

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I am sorry I asked to to shut up, I shouldn't have said that. But being tolerant on matters regarding the state is one thing, understanding the position of gays within the Church is another. If you want to even begin to understand that then you listen to the experiences of those who are partners with gay Catholics and those who are themselves gay and practicing Catholics. That is what brittain was tring to raise and I was trying to respond to.

[Reluctant Republican]

Wow, pretty long thread. Arguments clearly get heated around here, LOL.

Anyway, I think Phil is mostly on the money here. I personally would prefer it be called “marriage” but I understand that there are logical and well thought out reasons for why many religious people are reluctant to call it that. I don’t happen to agree with them, but as long as a person is for gay couples to enjoy the same financial benefits as heterosexual couples, is it really a big deal? It just seems to me like people are forgetting to separate the forest from the trees. I don’t think people like Phil need to be told they are wrong just because they happen to disagree on one point but are with us on every other aspect of the issue. But of course, an issue as divisive as this one can get quite heated.

Now on to the whole catholic thing, that’s another issue. I’m not Catholic, so it would be a disservice for me to try and debate on that issue. That’s for you all to decide amongst yourselves, LOL.