Kremlin Feels Nostalgic, Decides to bring back Soviet Union Full Force

[12th Doctor]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90317650


Russia Displays Military Might at Parade

by Gregory Feifer

Audio for this story will be available at approx. 7:00 p.m. ET

All Things Considered, May 9, 2008 · Russia has borrowed a page from the Soviet Union to show it's back on the world stage.

Tanks and missiles rolled across Red Square in Moscow for the first time since the end of communism Friday during the annual Victory Day parade.

Bombers and fighter jets roared across the blue sky overhead. President Dmitri Medvedev, who took the oath of office Wednesday, presided from stands lining the Kremlin's red-brick walls. He said Victory Day is Russia's most sacred holiday, and he praised his country's military tradition.

"Today our army and navy are gaining power," he said. "They are strong, like Russia itself."

Military bands played as thousands of soldiers marched to commemorate victory against Nazi Germany in World War II. More than 20 million Soviets died in the conflict, which Russia calls the "Great Patriotic War." Among the handful of Muscovites allowed into Red Square, veteran Alexander Grigorievich, a tank officer in World War II, said it was important for Russia to display its strength.

"This is a message to President Bush," he said. "Those who want to change the world and start wars like the one in Iraq should watch this parade to understand they can't meddle in our affairs."

This week, former President Vladimir Putin, now the country's prime minister, said including military hardware in Friday's parade doesn't constitute saber-rattling. But oil-rich Russia has increasingly sought global influence by confronting the West. Last year, Russia resumed Soviet-era long-range bomber patrols, and Russian planes now buzz the decks of U.S. aircraft carriers in international waters.

Military analyst Pavel Felgenhauer said Putin personally ordered Friday's parade to include military hardware.

"Putin wants to show that after eight years, Russia, as they say, is up from its knees," he said. "It's a resurgent Russia, almost as great as the Soviet Union, and he's standing there, a great leader at the stand. It's propaganda."

Felgenhauer says the Russian military is in a dreadful state and getting worse. Corruption is rife among the officer corps and a widespread tradition of brutal hazing of conscripts led to more than 450 deaths from beatings or suicide last year. And despite the money Putin has poured into the military, Russia has bought only a handful of tanks and some fighter jets to replace old, Soviet-era hardware.

Some of Russia's most advanced weaponry was on display Friday, but even that, the experts say, is woefully out of date.

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Well, for those who doubted that that was the direction Russia was headed in.  On the bright side, it will be nice having a "real" monolithic enemy that we can concentrate our attention at, again.

[GMantis]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90317650

Military analyst Pavel Felgenhauer said Putin personally ordered Friday's parade to include military hardware.

"Putin wants to show that after eight years, Russia, as they say, is up from its knees," he said. "It's a resurgent Russia, almost as great as the Soviet Union, and he's standing there, a great leader at the stand. It's propaganda."

Felgenhauer says the Russian military is in a dreadful state and getting worse. Corruption is rife among the officer corps and a widespread tradition of brutal hazing of conscripts led to more than 450 deaths from beatings or suicide last year. And despite the money Putin has poured into the military, Russia has bought only a handful of tanks and some fighter jets to replace old, Soviet-era hardware.

Some of Russia's most advanced weaponry was on display Friday, but even that, the experts say, is woefully out of date.

Don't let facts interfere with your world view - if you want to have for a monolithic enemy a country with a military budget 15 times less than the US and one who's economy is dependent on exporting natural resources to its neighbors, then by all means do so.

[12th Doctor]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90317650

Military analyst Pavel Felgenhauer said Putin personally ordered Friday's parade to include military hardware.

"Putin wants to show that after eight years, Russia, as they say, is up from its knees," he said. "It's a resurgent Russia, almost as great as the Soviet Union, and he's standing there, a great leader at the stand. It's propaganda."

Felgenhauer says the Russian military is in a dreadful state and getting worse. Corruption is rife among the officer corps and a widespread tradition of brutal hazing of conscripts led to more than 450 deaths from beatings or suicide last year. And despite the money Putin has poured into the military, Russia has bought only a handful of tanks and some fighter jets to replace old, Soviet-era hardware.

Some of Russia's most advanced weaponry was on display Friday, but even that, the experts say, is woefully out of date.

Don't let facts interfere with your world view - if you want to have for a monolithic enemy a country with a military budget 15 times less than the US and one who's economy is dependent on exporting natural resources to its neighbors, then by all means do so.

As we are not familiar with humor, allow me to assure you I didn't really mean that line.

[GMantis]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90317650

Military analyst Pavel Felgenhauer said Putin personally ordered Friday's parade to include military hardware.

"Putin wants to show that after eight years, Russia, as they say, is up from its knees," he said. "It's a resurgent Russia, almost as great as the Soviet Union, and he's standing there, a great leader at the stand. It's propaganda."

Felgenhauer says the Russian military is in a dreadful state and getting worse. Corruption is rife among the officer corps and a widespread tradition of brutal hazing of conscripts led to more than 450 deaths from beatings or suicide last year. And despite the money Putin has poured into the military, Russia has bought only a handful of tanks and some fighter jets to replace old, Soviet-era hardware.

Some of Russia's most advanced weaponry was on display Friday, but even that, the experts say, is woefully out of date.

Don't let facts interfere with your world view - if you want to have for a monolithic enemy a country with a military budget 15 times less than the US and one who's economy is dependent on exporting natural resources to its neighbors, then by all means do so.

As we are not familiar with humor, allow me to assure you I didn't really mean that line.

You should know by know that one can never assume whether someone is joking or not on this forum.

[12th Doctor]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90317650

Military analyst Pavel Felgenhauer said Putin personally ordered Friday's parade to include military hardware.

"Putin wants to show that after eight years, Russia, as they say, is up from its knees," he said. "It's a resurgent Russia, almost as great as the Soviet Union, and he's standing there, a great leader at the stand. It's propaganda."

Felgenhauer says the Russian military is in a dreadful state and getting worse. Corruption is rife among the officer corps and a widespread tradition of brutal hazing of conscripts led to more than 450 deaths from beatings or suicide last year. And despite the money Putin has poured into the military, Russia has bought only a handful of tanks and some fighter jets to replace old, Soviet-era hardware.

Some of Russia's most advanced weaponry was on display Friday, but even that, the experts say, is woefully out of date.

Don't let facts interfere with your world view - if you want to have for a monolithic enemy a country with a military budget 15 times less than the US and one who's economy is dependent on exporting natural resources to its neighbors, then by all means do so.

As we are not familiar with humor, allow me to assure you I didn't really mean that line.

You should know by know that one can never assume whether someone is joking or not on this forum.

Well, we don't really need a monolithic communist enemy anyway... we have Canada.

[Stranger in a strange land]

This has happened every year since 1945: the collapse of the Soviet Union didn't stop victory day celebrations. These parades have huge nostalgic and sentimental value, especially to Russians who lived through the War.

[Sensei]

I don't know why we don't do this. Way cooler than the Garfield float at the Macy's parade.

[dead0man]

No, if we did that we'd be dicks.

[12th Doctor]

This has happened every year since 1945: the collapse of the Soviet Union didn't stop victory day celebrations. These parades have huge nostalgic and sentimental value, especially to Russians who lived through the War.

Ummm, no, you're wrong.  This is the first time since 1991 that they have paraded military hardware through the streets.  This is an obvious thrown back to the Soviet era.

[The Man From G.O.P.]

Don't blame them a bit really, we'd do the same in their situation.


I've got an idea, instead of ignoring the huge atrocities occurring daily in the Middle East, why don't we make nice with the Russians and sweep the Balkans under the rug for a while? Energy costs go down, we gain a big ally in the fight against Islam, E. Europe stabilizes, and we have someone to do our dirty work for us... I mean really, while were caught thoroughly betwixt Imperialism and kowtowing to radical Islam, why not switch to a bottom line that will yield results?

[GMantis]

This has happened every year since 1945: the collapse of the Soviet Union didn't stop victory day celebrations. These parades have huge nostalgic and sentimental value, especially to Russians who lived through the War.

Ummm, no, you're wrong.  This is the first time since 1991 that they have paraded military hardware through the streets.  This is an obvious thrown back to the Soviet era.

If the article is to be believed, the hardware is also a throwback to the Soviet times.

[dead0man]

Don't blame them a bit really, we'd do the same in their situation.


I've got an idea, instead of ignoring the huge atrocities occurring daily in the Middle East, why don't we make nice with the Russians and sweep the Balkans under the rug for a while? Energy costs go down, we gain a big ally in the fight against Islam, E. Europe stabilizes, and we have someone to do our dirty work for us... I mean really, while were caught thoroughly betwixt Imperialism and kowtowing to radical Islam, why not switch to a bottom line that will yield results?

How are energy prices going to go down if we "make nice" with the Russians?  What does "sweep the Balkans under the rug" mean?  What's wrong with the stabilization in E.Europe now? (other than Russia)  Wouldn't it be easier to stop kowtowing to idiots and acting imperialistic?

[The Man From G.O.P.]

Don't blame them a bit really, we'd do the same in their situation.


I've got an idea, instead of ignoring the huge atrocities occurring daily in the Middle East, why don't we make nice with the Russians and sweep the Balkans under the rug for a while? Energy costs go down, we gain a big ally in the fight against Islam, E. Europe stabilizes, and we have someone to do our dirty work for us... I mean really, while were caught thoroughly betwixt Imperialism and kowtowing to radical Islam, why not switch to a bottom line that will yield results?

How are energy prices going to go down if we "make nice" with the Russians?  What does "sweep the Balkans under the rug" mean?  What's wrong with the stabilization in E.Europe now? (other than Russia)  Wouldn't it be easier to stop kowtowing to idiots and acting imperialistic?

Can't do both

[dead0man]

Why not?

[Robespierre's Jaw]

And I thought the United States and the Soviet Union Russian Federation ended the Cold War and there was no animosity between the two superpowers. Obviously not now. Who will be there to laugh at Boris' jokes?

[Sbane]

Why not?

Because all imperialism does is make the people we are trying to "liberate" hate us even more and also our ideals. The more wars we have in the middle east the lesser chance there is of democracy flourishing in the middle east. I mean just look at India as an example. We equated Capitalism with Colonialism and look how long it took us to get over that. If we want to spread our ideals in the world, it wont be with a stick.

[dead0man]

In Russia, Borris joke laughs at you.

[dead0man]

Why not?

Because all imperialism does is make the people we are trying to "liberate" hate us even more and also our ideals. The more wars we have in the middle east the lesser chance there is of democracy flourishing in the middle east. I mean just look at India as an example. We equated Capitalism with Colonialism and look how long it took us to get over that. If we want to spread our ideals in the world, it wont be with a stick.

k...but that doesn't mean we have to "kowtow" to them either.

[Sbane]

Why not?

Because all imperialism does is make the people we are trying to "liberate" hate us even more and also our ideals. The more wars we have in the middle east the lesser chance there is of democracy flourishing in the middle east. I mean just look at India as an example. We equated Capitalism with Colonialism and look how long it took us to get over that. If we want to spread our ideals in the world, it wont be with a stick.

k...but that doesn't mean we have to "kowtow" to them either.

Oh of course not man but we dont have to unilaterally invade countries either. Terrorism is a policing problem. A world policing problem so we need more multilateralism not less.

[12th Doctor]

This has happened every year since 1945: the collapse of the Soviet Union didn't stop victory day celebrations. These parades have huge nostalgic and sentimental value, especially to Russians who lived through the War.

Ummm, no, you're wrong.  This is the first time since 1991 that they have paraded military hardware through the streets.  This is an obvious thrown back to the Soviet era.

If the article is to be believed, the hardware is also a throwback to the Soviet times.

True.  The only thing that worries me about this is that it is so pathetic it almost seems like an act of desperation.  If they are launching into the old Russian strongman, imperialist over-tones then they might try to do something to prove they can back it up.

[dead0man]

Why not?

Because all imperialism does is make the people we are trying to "liberate" hate us even more and also our ideals. The more wars we have in the middle east the lesser chance there is of democracy flourishing in the middle east. I mean just look at India as an example. We equated Capitalism with Colonialism and look how long it took us to get over that. If we want to spread our ideals in the world, it wont be with a stick.

k...but that doesn't mean we have to "kowtow" to them either.

Oh of course not man but we dont have to unilaterally invade countries either. Terrorism is a policing problem. A world policing problem so we need more multilateralism not less.

Sure, this doesn't mean we have to "kowtow" to Fundie Muslim nations though.

[Sbane]

Why not?

Because all imperialism does is make the people we are trying to "liberate" hate us even more and also our ideals. The more wars we have in the middle east the lesser chance there is of democracy flourishing in the middle east. I mean just look at India as an example. We equated Capitalism with Colonialism and look how long it took us to get over that. If we want to spread our ideals in the world, it wont be with a stick.

k...but that doesn't mean we have to "kowtow" to them either.

Oh of course not man but we dont have to unilaterally invade countries either. Terrorism is a policing problem. A world policing problem so we need more multilateralism not less.

Sure, this doesn't mean we have to "kowtow" to Fundie Muslim nations though.

I dont think America has ever "kowtowed" to any fundie muslim nation. If you are equating negotiation with "kowtowing", well I sincerely believe you are wrong. We are the most strongest nation in the world, we should be the least afraid to negotiate. Sometimes invasions are necessary, as in the case of Afghanistan because you just cannot negotiate with the Taliban. Most of the time talking to our enemies work and of course we have the army for backup.

[Stranger in a strange land]

This has happened every year since 1945: the collapse of the Soviet Union didn't stop victory day celebrations. These parades have huge nostalgic and sentimental value, especially to Russians who lived through the War.

Ummm, no, you're wrong.  This is the first time since 1991 that they have paraded military hardware through the streets.  This is an obvious thrown back to the Soviet era.

If the article is to be believed, the hardware is also a throwback to the Soviet times.

True.  The only thing that worries me about this is that it is so pathetic it almost seems like an act of desperation.  If they are launching into the old Russian strongman, imperialist over-tones then they might try to do something to prove they can back it up.

lemme put it this way: Russia is trying to cope with its decline through nostalgic displays of military prowess which hark back to a happier time.

[dead0man]

Why not?

Because all imperialism does is make the people we are trying to "liberate" hate us even more and also our ideals. The more wars we have in the middle east the lesser chance there is of democracy flourishing in the middle east. I mean just look at India as an example. We equated Capitalism with Colonialism and look how long it took us to get over that. If we want to spread our ideals in the world, it wont be with a stick.

k...but that doesn't mean we have to "kowtow" to them either.

Oh of course not man but we dont have to unilaterally invade countries either. Terrorism is a policing problem. A world policing problem so we need more multilateralism not less.

Sure, this doesn't mean we have to "kowtow" to Fundie Muslim nations though.

I dont think America has ever "kowtowed" to any fundie muslim nation. If you are equating negotiation with "kowtowing", well I sincerely believe you are wrong. We are the most strongest nation in the world, we should be the least afraid to negotiate. Sometimes invasions are necessary, as in the case of Afghanistan because you just cannot negotiate with the Taliban. Most of the time talking to our enemies work and of course we have the army for backup.

I think you got lost somewhere.  All I was saying was that we don't have to EITHER play Empire or Kowtow to Muslim Fundies.  I'm saying there are other options than just those two.

[GMantis]

This has happened every year since 1945: the collapse of the Soviet Union didn't stop victory day celebrations. These parades have huge nostalgic and sentimental value, especially to Russians who lived through the War.

Ummm, no, you're wrong.  This is the first time since 1991 that they have paraded military hardware through the streets.  This is an obvious thrown back to the Soviet era.

If the article is to be believed, the hardware is also a throwback to the Soviet times.

True.  The only thing that worries me about this is that it is so pathetic it almost seems like an act of desperation.  If they are launching into the old Russian strongman, imperialist over-tones then they might try to do something to prove they can back it up.

I don't agree. They are more confident than in a long time, but they feel threatened by the actions of the US.  And I think that you don't understand the legacy of WW2 in Russia if you think they're so keen on dangerous wars.