Do left wing Christians have an almost flawless history?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Anti-Christians often like to bring up things like Crusades, Inquisition or fundie whackjobs in recent years, a few who have been terrorists (like Eric Rudolph.) None of course have been leftist. Meanwhile the counter of murderous left wing atheists like Stalin and Mao also gets thrown out. However what cases has there been of leftist Christians doing anything of the sort?

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

Jim Jones was a left-wing Christian who was responsible for the killings of hundreds.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Uh, the guy who tried to take down Jones was a Congressman from SAN FRANCISCO. I don't think a left winger would be opposed by the Representative of San Francisco.

[Alcon]

Uh, the guy who tried to take down Jones was a Congressman from SAN FRANCISCO. I don't think a left winger would be opposed by the Representative of San Francisco.

If there was a left-winger who was killing people, you wouldn't oppose him, because of ideological camaraderie?  Dee-lightful.

Crazy tends to gravitate toward extremes, and vice-versa, and most who commit atrocities have authoritarian views.  How many of the world's great crimes were committed by liberal Jews, agnostics, or non-authoritarians in general?  Few.

[Joe Republic]

Uh, the guy who tried to take down Jones was a Congressman from SAN FRANCISCO. I don't think a left winger would be opposed by the Representative of San Francisco.

Genius.  I guess it doesn't matter that Jones was an avowed socialist.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

Uh, the guy who tried to take down Jones was a Congressman from SAN FRANCISCO. I don't think a left winger would be opposed by the Representative of San Francisco.

From Wikipedia:

"Jones purported to preach what he called "apostolic socialism."[15] In doing so, the Temple openly preached to established members that "relgion is an opiate of the people."[16] Accordingly, "those who remained drugged with the opiate of religion had to be brought to enlightenment -- socialism."[17] In that regard, Jones also openly stated that he "took the church and used the church to bring people to atheism." [18] Jones often mixed those concepts, such as preaching that "If you're born in this church, this socialist revolution, you're not born in sin. If you're born in capitalist America, racist America, fascist America, then you're born in sin. But if you're born in socialism, you're not born in sin." [19]


"Unlike most other figures deemed as cult leaders, Jones enjoyed public support and contact with some of the highest level politicians in the United States. For example, in the heat of the 1976 Presidential Campaign, Jones met with Vice Presidential Candidate Walter Mondale on his campaign plane.[24] Likewise, First Lady Rosalynn Carter personally met Jones for a private dinner at the Stanford Court Hotel.[25] Mrs. Carter later called Jones personally.[26] In the 1976 grand opening of the San Francisco Democratic Party Headquarters, Jones packed the audience with Temple members and garnered louder applause when he spoke than Mrs. Carter.[27] Governor Jerry Brown, Lieutenant Govenor Mervyn Dymally and Assemblyman Willie Brown, among others, attended a large testimonial dinner in Jim Jones' honor in September of 1976.[28] At that dinner, Willie Brown referred to Jone as "a combination of Martin King, Angela Davis, Albert Einstein, and Chairman Mao."[29] Both Assemblyman Willie Brown and Governor Jerry Brown attended Temple services.[30] After the Peoples Temple participation was instrumental in the Mayoral election victory of George Moscone in 1975, Moscone appointed Jones as the Chairman of the San Francisco Housing Commission.[31]"

[JSojourner]

Uh, the guy who tried to take down Jones was a Congressman from SAN FRANCISCO. I don't think a left winger would be opposed by the Representative of San Francisco.

Sorry BRTD, Jones was a classic socialist whose views morphed into outright communism with the move to South America.  He was, almost until the end, trying to court Soviet and Cuban help.  Jones, in the beginning, was absolutely on the mark as far as helping people, seeking social justice and so forth.  He became power mad, however, and -- unlike most of the fundamentalist cultists -- took his flock in a dangerous left wing direction, rather than in a dangerous right wing direction.

Congressman Ryan was also a liberal, of course.  But like most liberals, he was concerned about human rights violations -- whether they were being committed by a leftist or a rightist.  When he constituents complained of mind control, physical abuse, rape, child molestation and other crimes, he investigated. 

[Filuwaúrdjan]

No, as no group of any sort does. To pick a specific example, the Taborites. A fascinating group, but not exactly "almost flawless"...

How many of the world's great crimes were committed by liberal Jews, agnostics, or non-authoritarians in general?  Few.

If lapsed Catholics count as agnostics then, um, you mean other than the stuff Hitler did?

[John Dibble]

How many of the world's great crimes were committed by liberal Jews, agnostics, or non-authoritarians in general?  Few.

If lapsed Catholics count as agnostics then, um, you mean other than the stuff Hitler did?

"Lapsed Catholics" and agnostics are not the same thing. Hitler was not an agnostic or even an athiest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Touchy, eh.

"Lapsed Catholics" and agnostics are not the same thing.

Depends how you look at things, doesn't it.

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I'm well aware that he wasn't an atheist. That article is dreadful, btw. Mixes up certain things that should not be mixed, misses the significance of others and uses awful sources.

[John Dibble]

Touchy, eh.

No, I'm just correcting you.

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Depends how you look at things, doesn't it.[/quote]

Only if you think 'apple' means the same thing as 'orange'. A lapsed Catholic can still believe in God with certainty, and such a person can not be an agnostic because that goes against the definition of what an agnostic is.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

No, I'm just correcting you.

Actually I think you were mostly defending yourself from association with something unpleasant.

Quite legitimately too, up to a point. But I wish you hadn't linked to that awful article. Ah.

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Both apples and oranges are fruit.

But you've missed my point, such as it is, here.

Beyond the usual attempt at shock, of course.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

No. The Anabaptists are pretty much the archetypal 'left-wing christians', so would the Ranters, The Taborites, The Waldensians and to a certain extent, The Hussites. Many modern cults (ie. the Jim Jones cult) have a very mystical christian ethos to them and certainly are 'left'. All of these groups are far from flawless, if anything, some turned out to be worse than those they rebelled against.

Interestingly, and the example of the Anabaptists holds very much here, the left wing element of the group ideology made it much more conservative (in the modern sense) than mainstream christianity. The Amish are an Anabaptist descendant group.

Here is the Wikipedia article on the Anabaptist Theocracy in Munster - its not great, but should be considered: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnster_Rebellion. Here]=http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/M850.html]Here is a link with much more detail - if not fully biased - for those historians among you.

Btw, having had a look at those sources for the Hitler religion article all I can say is LOL, I have to stop using wikipedia.

[JSojourner]

No. The Anabaptists are pretty much the archetypal 'left-wing christians', so would the Ranters, The Taborites, The Waldensians and to a certain extent, The Hussites. Many modern cults (ie. the Jim Jones cult) have a very mystical christian ethos to them and certainly are 'left'. All of these groups are far from flawless, if anything, some turned out to be worse than those they rebelled against.

Interestingly, and the example of the Anabaptists holds very much here, the left wing element of the group ideology made it much more conservative (in the modern sense) than mainstream christianity. The Amish are an Anabaptist descendant group.

Here is the Wikipedia article on the Anabaptist Theocracy in Munster - its not great, but should be considered: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnster_Rebellion. Here]=http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/M850.html]Here is a link with much more detail - if not fully biased - for those historians among you.

Btw, having had a look at those sources for the Hitler religion article all I can say is LOL, I have to stop using wikipedia.

The Anabaptists certainly have given birth to some left wing strains of Christianity.  Most of the United Brethern, Church of the Brethren, Mennonite, Moravian (I think) and other peace churches come out of this movement.  These are usually very conservative folks in terms of dress, lifestyle and so forth.  But they are often (though not always) quite left of center politically.

But don't forget, the Anabaptists also have offspring that are  VERY conservative politically.  All Baptist denominations stem from the Anabaptists and most modern Baptist denominations are quite far to the right (some Black Baptist groups and the American Baptist denomination would be exceptions).  In addition, the Grace Brethren, the Evangelical Mennonites and the Evangelical Free Church trace their roots to the Anabaptists.  These are almost always on the far right. 

So I'd say -- at least taking modern Christianity into account -- you're half right.  :-)

[The Mikado]

Couldn't Luther and Calvin (especially Calvin) be regarded as left-wing for their eras?  (I know, I know...Luther helped put down the Peasant Revolts)

[JSojourner]

Couldn't Luther and Calvin (especially Calvin) be regarded as left-wing for their eras?  (I know, I know...Luther helped put down the Peasant Revolts)

Well, in the sense that both were insurgents, I guess they could be.  But Calvin was downright dictatorial in Geneva.  And as a number of historians, economists and theologians agree -- his reforms paved the way for the Capitalism that took root in America...which was both a great thing and an awful thing.

But I will still and always will regard Calvin as an intellectual giant. 

[The Mikado]

Couldn't Luther and Calvin (especially Calvin) be regarded as left-wing for their eras?  (I know, I know...Luther helped put down the Peasant Revolts)

Well, in the sense that both were insurgents, I guess they could be.  But Calvin was downright dictatorial in Geneva.  And as a number of historians, economists and theologians agree -- his reforms paved the way for the Capitalism that took root in America...which was both a great thing and an awful thing.

But I will still and always will regard Calvin as an intellectual giant. 

I meant in terms of supporting authority to ordinary Christians as opposed to clergy.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

And as a number of historians, economists and theologians agree -- his reforms paved the way for the Capitalism that took root in America...

Max Weber has been dead for almost ninety years.

[Torie]

Couldn't Luther and Calvin (especially Calvin) be regarded as left-wing for their eras?  (I know, I know...Luther helped put down the Peasant Revolts)

Well, in the sense that both were insurgents, I guess they could be.  But Calvin was downright dictatorial in Geneva.  And as a number of historians, economists and theologians agree -- his reforms paved the way for the Capitalism that took root in America...which was both a great thing and an awful thing.

But I will still and always will regard Calvin as an intellectual giant. 

When I think about the theological theory of  predestination, I think of what George Herbert Walker Bush said to Pierre Dupont in a debate about something involving denying driver's licenses to teenagers; it may have been a new idea and a creative idea, but it was a dumb idea.

[dead0man]

Uh, the guy who tried to take down Jones was a Congressman from SAN FRANCISCO. I don't think a left winger would be opposed by the Representative of San Francisco.

How'd your foot taste?

[12th Doctor]

Touchy, eh.

"Lapsed Catholics" and agnostics are not the same thing.

Depends how you look at things, doesn't it.

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I'm well aware that he wasn't an atheist. That article is dreadful, btw. Mixes up certain things that should not be mixed, misses the significance of others and uses awful sources.

That article does limp quite a bit.  It totally brushed aside Hitler's strong connection to the occult, his swearing off and utter hatred of the Catholic Church (BRTD has found a new hero, it looks like) and his belief that Christianity in general was primarily the faith of "Latin invaders" and not "German".

In reality, what Hitler planned to create was a National Church, using aspects of the Occult, Christianity and Nazi philosophy to create an "Aryan Church."

[dead0man]

The way I understood it was that Hitler just used religion as a tool to get a few more people to follow him.  He wasn't all that religious himself.  Kind of like most modern American politicians.



(I first just put Bush, then changed it to Republicans...but many Dems fake their religiousness too.)

[minionofmidas]

Couldn't Luther and Calvin (especially Calvin) be regarded as left-wing for their eras?  (I know, I know...Luther helped put down the Peasant Revolts)

Certainly not. Luther is the epitome of a princely anus leech.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I think talking about people in medieval times long before the concept of left and right wings existed completely misses the point (as does arguing Luther and Calvin were "leftists".)

[Keystone Phil]

I think talking about people in medieval times long before the concept of left and right wings existed completely misses the point (as does arguing Luther and Calvin were "leftists".)

LOL