Purgatory?

[Flying Dog]

Well?

[Alcon]

As far as I know, "purgatory" has limited application beyond Roman Catholicism.  The Mormons and Jews, and a few orthodox branches, have purgatory-like views but don't have the identical concept, even if they may use that word to describe their concepts.

(Option 3, obviously)

[afleitch]

I a level playing field like purgatory didn't exist they would invent it...

[Joe Biden 2020]

I don't believe in it, personally.  I believe that our souls will go directly to heaven or hell upon our passing from this life.

[dead0man]

Is it mentioned in the bible?

[12th Doctor]

Is it mentioned in the bible?

Yes... though not directly.

First, let us define it, since there are many misconceptions.

Purgatory is a place where souls who die in God's grace pass through to be purified before entrance into Heaven.  No one knows the exact nature of the place (though some imagine a kind of Hell Lite).  All those who die in sin (not those who are sinful as we all are sinful) go there.  Those who die in a state of grave sin do not (Degrees of sin are, indeed, clearly presented in 1 John 5:16-17).  Thus, it is not a "Get out of jail free card".

Now, I'm gonna fire some passages at you, but you will see the reasoning develop without me having to go into too much detail:

Matthew 5:48
So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Hebrews 12:14
Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

James 3

 1
    Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you realize that we will be judged more strictly,
2
    for we all fall short in many respects. If anyone does not fall short in speech, he is a perfect man, able to bridle his whole body also.

Revelations 21

26
    The treasure and wealth of the nations will be brought there,
27
    but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

So here I pause.  It has been clearly demonstrated that perfection is required to enter the kingdom.  But no one is perfect.  We all fall short.

Here, Christ is speaking of spirituality and sin when he says

Matthew 5

 23
    Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you,
24
    leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
25
    Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison.
26
    Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.

There is a debt to be paid to god for our sins which we do not settle on Earth.

1 Corinthians

  10
    According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it,
11
    for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.

12
    If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
13
    the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work.
14
    If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
15
    But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire.
16
    Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17
    If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for the temple of God, which you are, is holy.

When many look at this passage, they attempt to state that God is only judging the quality of ones good works.  But verse 17 makes it clear he is testing one's sins.  Here the analogy is used again:

1 Peter 1:

 6
  In this you rejoice, although now for a little while you may have to suffer through various trials,
7
    so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

And we also have Luke 12

 45
    But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, to eat and drink and get drunk,
46
    then that servant's master will come on an unexpected day and at an unknown hour and will punish him severely and assign him a place with the unfaithful.
47
    That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely;
48
    and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.

Notice, the truly negligent servant gets placed with the unfaithful.  But, while the other servants are sinful, they are not cast away, but rather beaten, but allowed to stay.  Well, no one gets beaten in Heaven, where are these people?

In fact, Peter tells us the Jesus prayed from these "souls in prison" (1 Peter 3:18-20 and 4:6).  Again, the question, why pray for people in Heaven or Hell?

Paul prayed for his dead friend Onesiphorus.  Again, why pray for someone in Heaven or Hell?

I'll stop there for now

[??????????]

I believe in the Jewish concept of it as described in the bible. I believe that no one goes either to heaven or hell until the actual judgment day. That's why I believe some people have the ability to hear and see ghosts, spirits or whatever else you want to call them.

[12th Doctor]

I believe in the Jewish concept of it as described in the bible. I believe that no one goes either to heaven or hell until the actual judgment day. That's why I believe some people have the ability to hear and see ghosts, spirits or whatever else you want to call them.

HERETIC!!!  EXCOMMUNICATED!!!

[tik 🪀✨]

If there's such a thing, this is it.

[dead0man]

Is it mentioned in the bible?

Yes... though not directly.

First, let us define it, since there are many misconceptions.

<snip>

I'll stop there for now

Interesting.  Are you sure you guys aren't reading to much into Parables?  Jesus did love the things.

[12th Doctor]

Is it mentioned in the bible?

Yes... though not directly.

First, let us define it, since there are many misconceptions.

<snip>

I'll stop there for now

Interesting.  Are you sure you guys aren't reading to much into Parables?  Jesus did love the things.

The Jews had an expressed belief in such a place and it has been a part of Church teaching from the beginning.  Where tradition meets scripture....

[Хahar 🤔]

I believe in the Jewish concept of it as described in the bible. I believe that no one goes either to heaven or hell until the actual judgment day. That's why I believe some people have the ability to hear and see ghosts, spirits or whatever else you want to call them.

I'm not sure about the last sentence, but everything else is right on.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

I believe in a place where all our sins are washed away, so I voted yes.

[JSojourner]

I must agree with Soulty, that to enter the Presence of a perfect and sinless God, we must also be perfect and sinless.  Moses could not even look upon the face of God because he would die.  So God told him to hide himself in the cleft of a rocky outcrop and turn his face away as God passed by.  This gives us some sense of how short all human beings fall.  St. Paul says, "All have sinned and come short of the glory (or, perfection) of God." Romans 3:23.

But I must disagree that Purgatory is a place where we are purified or made acceptable to God, so that we can enter His Presence. Though St. Paul says we are all imperfect in Romans 3:23, in the very next verse he proclaims..."We are justified as a gift by God's grace, which comes to us through the redemption which is in Jesus Christ". The Apostle further explains in another of his epistles, "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

In short, Jesus took our sin and imperfection upon himself on the cross.  All sins...past, present and future...were laid on him.  As Isaiah prophesied, "The iniquity of us all was upon him". The writer of Hebrews says it is because of Jesus' death and resurrection that we are now able to enter the Presence of God in prayer.  It is not by anything righteous we have done, or by any post-mortem purification.  It is solely through the shed blood of Jesus Christ that we are justified.

This does not, however, negate or nullify some sort of Purgatory.   But what my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters understand as a place of suffering may rather be a place where the souls of the righteous await final resurrection in joy and light.  We Protestants often wrongly assume that the dead in Christ are dead indeed until final resurrection.  In his magnum opus on the Resurrection, Bishop N.T. Wright asserts that those who have died in Christ and who await the day of resurrection are spiritually alive, active and in the Presence of God.  St. Paul backs this up when he says, "If I am absent from the body, I am present with the Lord."

The work of purification was accomplished once and for all on Calvary.  This is no longer contrary to Roman Catholic teaching, either.  The RCC, for centuries, shunned, discouraged and even rejected the doctrine of justification by grace, through faith.  This is one thing that prompted the Reformation.  But in 1998, His Holiness John Paul the Second signed the historic Concordat of Agreement with the Lutheran World Federation declaring -- once and for all -- that no human being is saved through his own work, effort, goodness or merit.  And that Jesus Christ alone is the atoning sacrifice for sin. In so doing, the Holy Father officially ended 500 years of condemnation between Protestants and Roman Catholics, both of whom have behaved shamefully toward the other at times in history.

This acknowledgement of Sola Gratia by the Pontiff does not necessarily do away with the doctrine of Purgatory but it must change the nature of Catholic (and hopefully, Protestant) understanding Purgatory.  We should be in continual dialogue with one another about this issue and try to respectfully flesh out the possibilities.

I should also hasten to add that the Concordat of Agreement further stated that good works, while clearly not salvific in themselves, were an absolutely expected and non-negotiable result of belief in Jesus Christ.  As St. James has said, "Faith (that is, salvation) without good works, is dead."

[JSojourner]

Speaking of Purgatory --

Did any of you see the scene in The Sopranos where Christopher had been shot and had a near death experience?  He went to what he thought was Hell.  He said he knew it was Hell because it was a Irish bar in Boston and every day was St. Patrick's Day.  I spewed a mouthful of popcorn when he read that line, it was so funny coming from an Italian.

Then, Paulie Walnuts set's Chrissy straight.  He said, "You weren't in Hell, my friend.  That was Purgatory.  You're not gonna go to Hell.  Hell is for the Hitlers and scumbags like that.  Me?  I figure with all the people I whacked, I got at least 10 thousand years to do in Purgatory. But that's eternity.  I can do time like that standing on my head."


Admittedly horrible theology.  But friggin' hilarious.

[12th Doctor]

I must agree with Soulty, that to enter the Presence of a perfect and sinless God, we must also be perfect and sinless.  Moses could not even look upon the face of God because he would die.  So God told him to hide himself in the cleft of a rocky outcrop and turn his face away as God passed by.  This gives us some sense of how short all human beings fall.  St. Paul says, "All have sinned and come short of the glory (or, perfection) of God." Romans 3:23.

But I must disagree that Purgatory is a place where we are purified or made acceptable to God, so that we can enter His Presence. Though St. Paul says we are all imperfect in Romans 3:23, in the very next verse he proclaims..."We are justified as a gift by God's grace, which comes to us through the redemption which is in Jesus Christ". The Apostle further explains in another of his epistles, "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

In short, Jesus took our sin and imperfection upon himself on the cross.  All sins...past, present and future...were laid on him.  As Isaiah prophesied, "The iniquity of us all was upon him". The writer of Hebrews says it is because of Jesus' death and resurrection that we are now able to enter the Presence of God in prayer.  It is not by anything righteous we have done, or by any post-mortem purification.  It is solely through the shed blood of Jesus Christ that we are justified.

This does not, however, negate or nullify some sort of Purgatory.   But what my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters understand as a place of suffering may rather be a place where the souls of the righteous await final resurrection in joy and light.  We Protestants often wrongly assume that the dead in Christ are dead indeed until final resurrection.  In his magnum opus on the Resurrection, Bishop N.T. Wright asserts that those who have died in Christ and who await the day of resurrection are spiritually alive, active and in the Presence of God.  St. Paul backs this up when he says, "If I am absent from the body, I am present with the Lord."

The work of purification was accomplished once and for all on Calvary.  This is no longer contrary to Roman Catholic teaching, either.  The RCC, for centuries, shunned, discouraged and even rejected the doctrine of justification by grace, through faith.  This is one thing that prompted the Reformation.  But in 1998, His Holiness John Paul the Second signed the historic Concordat of Agreement with the Lutheran World Federation declaring -- once and for all -- that no human being is saved through his own work, effort, goodness or merit.  And that Jesus Christ alone is the atoning sacrifice for sin. In so doing, the Holy Father officially ended 500 years of condemnation between Protestants and Roman Catholics, both of whom have behaved shamefully toward the other at times in history.

This acknowledgement of Sola Gratia by the Pontiff does not necessarily do away with the doctrine of Purgatory but it must change the nature of Catholic (and hopefully, Protestant) understanding Purgatory.  We should be in continual dialogue with one another about this issue and try to respectfully flesh out the possibilities.

I should also hasten to add that the Concordat of Agreement further stated that good works, while clearly not salvific in themselves, were an absolutely expected and non-negotiable result of belief in Jesus Christ.  As St. James has said, "Faith (that is, salvation) without good works, is dead."

The idea that we are saved by God's Grace along was never contrary to Catholic Theology.  The question was about how that comes about.  What are the visible signs of God's grace?  How does one show that they truly have faith?  That's what the argument was about.  And just because we settled the issue with the Lutherans doesn't mean its settled.  That's like saying that just because Republicans are starting to settle around John McCain means that we can have real dialogue with the far Left.