Obama on Small-Town Pennsylvania...

[Ban my account ffs!]

If anyone thinks Obama voters will be turned off by this media blitzkrieg and droolfest over this.........fuggetaboutit.  They will not vote for the Beast cause of this.

That about somes it.

There would be no rejection of such simple ideas in a society that promotes rationality and logic.  We do not seem to do that yet as a majority.

In this thread you have demonstrated no rationality and no logic. Just thought you ought to know.

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Your mind appears to be as closed as Anglesey on a Sunday.

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lol; this is exactly the sort of nonsense the spoiled "radical" brats used to trot out in the '60's and early '70's. But at least they could write a bit better than you.

Yes, we know Al.. your penis is unimaginably bigger than any of ours could ever dream to be...

But maybe you could actually speak to the debate at hand rather than just picking apart the other posters.

....and by not sounding...elitist.

Oh, the irony... I suppose you know more than a bit about irony, huh Al?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Yes, we know Al.. your penis is unimaginably bigger than any of ours could ever dream to be...

"I gave up comparing genitalia in school"

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I am speaking to the debate in hand, at least as I see it. I don't care what impact the storm-in-a-teacup that sparked this thread has on the election.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Well, this is why we need to have a real discussion about these sorts of things. Then again, if people are willingly making bad choices, what can we do about it? Is it us? Is it them? Do we simply choose to go extinct?

In a democracy, we assume that the majority will have the wisdom to make the right choices.  Or, in Churchill's words, "Democracy is the worst system of government, except for all the others."

I like the idea that some people here seem to be advocating that Obama knows better than Clinton or McCain, and the people in general.  Their evidence is?   Obama is not a guy with a good track record; he doesn't have a track record.

Nobody claims that Obama knows what's better for people better than the people themselves.. he just recognizes that many politicians would rather continue to enact policies that hurt working class Americans and distract them by trying to scare the crap out of them with other issues.

He brings that up.. and the reaction by many has been surprisingly, well.. bitter.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Yes, we know Al.. your penis is unimaginably bigger than any of ours could ever dream to be...

"I gave up comparing genitalia in school"

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I am speaking to the debate in hand, at least as I see it. I don't care what impact the storm-in-a-teacup that sparked this thread has on the election.

You just can't help yourself, can you?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Yes, we know Al.. your penis is unimaginably bigger than any of ours could ever dream to be...

"I gave up comparing genitalia in school"

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I am speaking to the debate in hand, at least as I see it. I don't care what impact the storm-in-a-teacup that sparked this thread has on the election.

You just can't help yourself, can you?

In what respect?

[Person Man]

Well, this is why we need to have a real discussion about these sorts of things. Then again, if people are willingly making bad choices, what can we do about it? Is it us? Is it them? Do we simply choose to go extinct?

In a democracy, we assume that the majority will have the wisdom to make the right choices.  Or, in Churchill's words, "Democracy is the worst system of government, except for all the others."

I like the idea that some people here seem to be advocating that Obama knows better than Clinton or McCain, and the people in general.  Their evidence is?   Obama is not a guy with a good track record; he doesn't have a track record.

There's irony in this, too....and we much be aware of demagogues. The collective wisdom of the masses is great, but situations change. Who will lead the way to good choices? ...... Perhaps bad choices are what are needed? Then again, things are the darkest just before everything goes black.

Well, this is why we need to have a real discussion about these sorts of things. Then again, if people are willingly making bad choices, what can we do about it? Is it us? Is it them? Do we simply choose to go extinct?

In a democracy, we assume that the majority will have the wisdom to make the right choices.  Or, in Churchill's words, "Democracy is the worst system of government, except for all the others."

I like the idea that some people here seem to be advocating that Obama knows better than Clinton or McCain, and the people in general.  Their evidence is?   Obama is not a guy with a good track record; he doesn't have a track record.

Nobody claims that Obama knows what's better for people better than the people themselves.. he just recognizes that many politicians would rather continue to enact policies that hurt working class Americans and distract them by trying to scare the crap out of them with other issues.

He brings that up.. and the reaction by many has been surprisingly, well.. bitter.

Another ironic bit- Vander, in his opium haze, is talking about how people will choose "Killary" because of fear and that they will perfer luxorious slavery over harsh freedom.

[Democratic Hawk]

If anyone thinks Obama voters will be turned off by this media blitzkrieg and droolfest over this.........fuggetaboutit.  They will not vote for the Beast cause of this.

There is no doubt in my mind that he'd make a very good president; he won't be pursuing a 51% - and to hell with the rest - strategy if elected and do you know why? It's because it won't be all about him. Clinton's ego and McCain's vanity are not attractive qualities

Obama has the potential to make a lasting difference - domestically and internationally - for the better

Just because there are those who want to continually ignite racial and cultural wedge issues, for their own selfish political gain, it doesn't follow that Obama does

Gotta move on

Dave

[angus]

This is amazing!  Thirty-eight pages!  I didn't even catch the sound-bite on the news till after Sam posted the topic, and even then I didn't think it was worth a thread.  Am I out of touch or what?

Sam, you ought to be giving stock-market advice.  By the way, you got any?  I'm tanking over here.  Not bad enough to take up hunting or attending mass, but it's been a rough quarter. 

[Beet]

This is amazing!  Thirty-eight pages!  I didn't even catch the sound-bite on the news till after Sam posted the topic, and even then I didn't think it was worth a thread.  Am I out of touch or what?

Sam, you ought to be giving stock-market advice.  By the way, you got any?  I'm tanking over here.  Not bad enough to take up hunting or attending mass, but it's been a rough quarter. 

I bought Citi near the start of January... someone told me that, it had gone down so much it couldn't possibly go down any further.

[J. J.]

Well, this is why we need to have a real discussion about these sorts of things. Then again, if people are willingly making bad choices, what can we do about it? Is it us? Is it them? Do we simply choose to go extinct?

In a democracy, we assume that the majority will have the wisdom to make the right choices.  Or, in Churchill's words, "Democracy is the worst system of government, except for all the others."

I like the idea that some people here seem to be advocating that Obama knows better than Clinton or McCain, and the people in general.  Their evidence is?   Obama is not a guy with a good track record; he doesn't have a track record.

Nobody claims that Obama knows what's better for people better than the people themselves.. he just recognizes that many politicians would rather continue to enact policies that hurt working class Americans and distract them by trying to scare the crap out of them with other issues.

He brings that up.. and the reaction by many has been surprisingly, well.. bitter.

Actually , Bill Rhinestone, did make the point.  It's been quoted above:  "Then again, if people are willingly making bad choices, what can we do about it?"

Obama wasn't talking about politicians, he was talking about the voters that "cling" to guns and religion.

[J. J.]

Well, this is why we need to have a real discussion about these sorts of things. Then again, if people are willingly making bad choices, what can we do about it? Is it us? Is it them? Do we simply choose to go extinct?

In a democracy, we assume that the majority will have the wisdom to make the right choices.  Or, in Churchill's words, "Democracy is the worst system of government, except for all the others."

I like the idea that some people here seem to be advocating that Obama knows better than Clinton or McCain, and the people in general.  Their evidence is?   Obama is not a guy with a good track record; he doesn't have a track record.

There's irony in this, too....and we much be aware of demagogues. The collective wisdom of the masses is great, but situations change. Who will lead the way to good choices? ...... Perhaps bad choices are what are needed? Then again, things are the darkest just before everything goes black.

Of course people have to beware of demagogues, but one of the best ways to guard against that is to look at actions they have taken.  In Obama's case, there is very little to look at.

[Person Man]

Well, this is why we need to have a real discussion about these sorts of things. Then again, if people are willingly making bad choices, what can we do about it? Is it us? Is it them? Do we simply choose to go extinct?

In a democracy, we assume that the majority will have the wisdom to make the right choices.  Or, in Churchill's words, "Democracy is the worst system of government, except for all the others."

I like the idea that some people here seem to be advocating that Obama knows better than Clinton or McCain, and the people in general.  Their evidence is?   Obama is not a guy with a good track record; he doesn't have a track record.

Nobody claims that Obama knows what's better for people better than the people themselves.. he just recognizes that many politicians would rather continue to enact policies that hurt working class Americans and distract them by trying to scare the crap out of them with other issues.

He brings that up.. and the reaction by many has been surprisingly, well.. bitter.

Actually , Bill Rhinestone, did make the point.  It's been quoted above:  "Then again, if people are willingly making bad choices, what can we do about it?"

Obama wasn't talking about politicians, he was talking about the voters that "cling" to guns and religion.

I was talking those people who base their decisions on those things and end up making poor choices out of them in the long run. Let's face it. Things are bad. While we should respect what people do, is there a way to induce decision making that creates better results?

[J. J.]

I was talking those people who base their decisions on those things and end up making poor choices out of them in the long run. Let's face it. Things are bad. While we should respect what people do, is there a way to induce decision making that creates better results?

Because it is their choice to make; they are not children.  Obama wasn't making an argument to induce them; he was complaining because he didn't like their choices.  Since he doesn't like it, they must be wrong, according to him.

[angus]

This is amazing!  Thirty-eight pages!  I didn't even catch the sound-bite on the news till after Sam posted the topic, and even then I didn't think it was worth a thread.  Am I out of touch or what?

Sam, you ought to be giving stock-market advice.  By the way, you got any?  I'm tanking over here.  Not bad enough to take up hunting or attending mass, but it's been a rough quarter. 

I bought Citi near the start of January... someone told me that, it had gone down so much it couldn't possibly go down any further.

So yesterday I'm in the Hy-Vee supermarket and I see this chick come in with a red shirt that says I PUT OUT on the front.  Red T-shirt with white lettering.  Nothing else on the shirt.  I'm wondering if that means the same thing today as it did in the mid-eighties when I was her age.  I suppose it does, but I'm probably out of touch.  She was chunky and had a really big nose.  And her arms were much more hairy than I usually appreciate in a woman.  But I have to say that the shirt did it for me.  I actually found her attractive, whereas I wouldn't otherwise.  Maybe that's why she wore the shirt.  I suppose the kids do that sort of thing all the time, nowadays.  Or maybe "putting out" means something different now.  Why knows?  What I do now is that I, like Obama, must be somewhat out of touch.

Incidentally, about ten minutes later I'm at the rear of the store, in the butcher's section trying to pick out the evening's entree, when this really old guy with thick glasses comes sauntering up to the butcher trying to pick out a ribeye.  That one.  This one, sir?  No, that one!  O you mean this one, sir?  And he's becoming a bit cranky by now.  Look, I mean that one, without so much fat.  Not as much fat as the one I had yesterday.  The one I had yesterday had too much fat.  I'm on cholesterol medication, you know, and I need to watch out.

What's wrong with this picture?  I'm stunned on at least four levels.  But I'm still out of touch, I know.

I bought a bunch of GE stock at 38 a share after it had gone down from about fifty in a month.  Same thought:  it can't get much worse.  Now it's at 32 or thereabouts.  Hey, at least it's one stock that pays dividends.  And my ORP lost about 2400 dollars between December 31 and March 31.  No sheet.  2400 in a quarter.  I'm not sure I have ever had such a bad quarter since I have been a grown-up. 

I think Obama is a smart enough guy to read stats.  He probably reads his own investment analysis sheet.  Why not?  Of course, he's a tad older than I and therefore probably invests a little more conservatively.  But he's also probably a tad wealthier than I and therefore probably invests a little more money than I.  Either way, I have to imagine he's sensitive to these sorts of things.  Like every candidate, he probably knows that the unemployment rate is a mere 2.5 percent in Cedar Falls.  Seems like every candidate--even back when there were nine in each party--knew more about the economic condition of the Hawkeye State than I did.  But times have changed.  And they all knew Iowa was doing pretty well.  There were all of 36 foreclosures in Black Hawk County last year.  This, in a county with about 200 thousand people.  So don't count on getting a really good deal if you're looking to buy a home.  Maybe it's a buyer's market in Montgomery County, Pennsylvania, but it's still a slow, stable, steady increase in Black Hawk County, Iowa. 

The point is, it's hard to keep up with what's going on in every county in every state.  But it's probably a reasonable assumption that recessionary economics hits many, especially those living paycheck to paycheck.  There are probably more sensitive ways to say so, but I don't begrudge a man a little political incorrectness once in a while.  In fact, I think it's refreshing to see a candidate willing to say something plainly without parsing.  In an age when you can be sued for asking children to remove themselves from trees, I think the candor is refreshing and bold.

Many of us are hurting just a little, economically, and during those times we become reflective.  For me, I get off on cycling, scuba-diving, and trying to make this suitcase-sized scanning-tunneling micrograph that a colleague gave me work.  For others, it's hunting, spousal abuse, and impugning immigrants.  But really, it's the same thing.  Get your mind off the stock market for a while.  Obama's comments may have underestimated certain areas of growth in the Keystone State, but his analysis seems reasonable to me, even if a little hardspoken.

[J. J.]

Would you say the same thing if a white cadidate said the only thing black people wanted was nice shoes a warm house and good sex, Angus?  (I am paraphrasing an actual, though old, comment.)

[angus]

I don't know, JJ.  I freely admit that I'm out of touch.  I cannot be more honest than to say that it didn't catch me at all in the wrong way when I read the original comment.  In this thread.  Which, by that time, was about six pages long.  And I honestly was taken by surprise at the amount of time the talking heads were devoting to the seemingly innocuous comment on Saturday.  By now, I guess we're all getting pretty desensitized to it.  In that sense, it's not unlike the replaying and replaying of the video in which "motorist Rodney King" was repeatedly and violently pummeled by california policemen.  The ultimate analysis of that trial was that the leniency shown to the officers was the result of a clever campaign of desensitization of imagery.  Maybe, when it's all said and done--and it will be all said and all done at some future juncture--Obama will be thankful for the overplay which will result in desensitization. 

All I know is that at my core I think the statement seems like a reasonable analysis by a man who got a few of the supporting facts wrong.  Imperfect though it is, it is not the sort of statement that I would have predicted to be worth a thirty-eight page thread.

But then what do I know?  I bought GE stock in January, didn't I?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

MSNBC is running Hillary's ad without commentary with no charge to her. It's official, the media wants President John McCain and will do anything to get that.

[J. J.]

MSNBC is running Hillary's ad without commentary with no charge to her. It's official, the media wants President John McCain and will do anything to get that.

I'm not sure of the relevance to this thread.

[J. J.]

I don't know, JJ.  I freely admit that I'm out of touch.  I cannot be more honest than to say that it didn't catch me at all in the wrong way when I read the original comment.  In this thread.  Which, by that time, was about six pages long.  And I honestly was taken by surprise at the amount of time the talking heads were devoting to the seemingly innocuous comment on Saturday.  By now, I guess we're all getting pretty desensitized to it.  In that sense, it's not unlike the replaying and replaying of the video in which "motorist Rodney King" was repeatedly and violently pummeled by california policemen.  The ultimate analysis of that trial was that the leniency shown to the officers was the result of a clever campaign of desensitization of imagery.  Maybe, when it's all said and done--and it will be all said and all done at some future juncture--Obama will be thankful for the overplay which will result in desensitization. 

All I know is that at my core I think the statement seems like a reasonable analysis by a man who got a few of the supporting facts wrong.  Imperfect though it is, it is not the sort of statement that I would have predicted to be worth a thirty-eight page thread.

But then what do I know?  I bought GE stock in January, didn't I?

Even on a pure economic terms, it is big news because Obama got it so incredibly wrong.  Linking it to religion and guns really knocks it out of the ball park.  This is far, far worse than Pastor Wright.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

MSNBC is running Hillary's ad without commentary with no charge to her. It's official, the media wants President John McCain and will do anything to get that.

I'm not sure of the relevance to this thread.

It's her ad beating the dead horse that this 38 page thread is all about.

[elcorazon]

Pay and benefits at the 'high tech' jobs you fantasize about do not remotely match those provided by working in a steel mill 35 years ago.

Well we can't really return to being an industrial economy much easier than we could return to being an agrarian state.  Standard of living has gone up across the board in the last 35 years, even in steel areas, so I don't know how much one can complain.

Actually it has not.  Median incomes per capita are much lower for the working class.  The only reason they have (almost) maintained their consumption is the wife is forced to work now.

Also aside from the problem of falling income, the huge increase in insecurety and the massive loss of benefits has been just as damaging.  Of course all this could be solved by a generous dole and national health care, but those that control will not allow it.

Not in these newer industries, and there were seasonal layoffs in the steel industry dating back to the 1960's if not before.  It was never "secure."  That is what Retrobama wants to return to.

Wow.  J.J.  I am a bit surprised at this. Never thought you were so reactionary.  Seriously, you are gleaning an incredible amount from these comments.

Because I'm not only from the area, I use to hold public office in that area.  I still have friends there.

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In this case, Obama was saying it, not someone else.  If you recall, I was critical of Obama's response and his putting Wright in the campaign, but not of him being in Wright's congregation.  That Wright has some strange ideas doesn't bother me; that Obama does.

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I'm not that critical of Obama over Wright; at best it shows how he handles crisis situation (minor ones).  It's important only because Obama doesn't have a great record of crisis situations.

This one deals with Obama's view of the country, Obamality, and it doesn't resemble reality.

you see, I don't think it does... at least not much.  I think Obama was talking politics.  He was explaining not why people focus on guns and god and immigration on a day to day basis, but why they use it to base their votes rather than focusing on more "political" issues.  I dunno.  Seems you've taken a few ill-chosen words and made it prove some sort of overall philosophy of the entire country.  Seems a stretch. 

I mean if Hillary can get tired and make up personal stories out of whole cloth, why can't barack choose words poorly to make a point during a fundraiser knowing his audience wouldn't call him on it.

a mistake, sure.  but you make it seem like he's committed a crime or something.

[J. J.]

you see, I don't think it does... at least not much.  I think Obama was talking politics.  He was explaining not why people focus on guns and god and immigration on a day to day basis, but why they use it to base their votes rather than focusing on more "political" issues.  I dunno.  Seems you've taken a few ill-chosen words and made it prove some sort of overall philosophy of the entire country.  Seems a stretch. 

I mean if Hillary can get tired and make up personal stories out of whole cloth, why can't barack choose words poorly to make a point during a fundraiser knowing his audience wouldn't call him on it.

a mistake, sure.  but you make it seem like he's committed a crime or something.

I think Obama was talking politics; if this was a joke, I could have understood it.  He seems to believe it, and that is disturbing.

It is disturbing because we really don't know that much about him.  When he opens up on his views like this, it is important.

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

What happens when democracy truly doesn't work.

This looks like it translates as "what happens when my party loses".

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Bearing in mind some of the disgusting rubbish you've been spouting off here, I doubt that you give a tinkers cuss for equality or freedom; you just think that you do because paying lip-service to such concepts is part of the ideological (if that's too grand a word) package that you've bought into.

Can we agree to just disagree?  You're getting real defensive.  Picking apart my writing style?  That's adorable.

P.S. And don't sit there and tell me what I really do and don't care about. 

[Lunar]

Woman 1: I was very insulted by Barack Obama.

Man 1: It just shows how out of touch Barack Obama is.

Woman 2: I'm not clinging to my faith out of frustration and bitterness. I find that my faith is very uplifting.

Man 2: The good people of Pennsylvania deserve a lot better than what Barack Obama said.

Woman 1: Hillary does understand the citizens of Pennsylvania better.

Woman 3: Hillary Clinton has been fighting for people like us her whole life.

[Nym90]

Certainly what Obama said was interpreted as demeaning to the working class and "average Joe". We can debate all year about whether or not it should've been interpreted this way, but it has been....so in a political context that's all that matters, since perception is reality.

Hopefully he'll learn from his missteps and atone for it. This type of thing reminds us that he is indeed a bit wet behind the ears and prone to verbal missteps. It happens to every candidate, but handling the fallout is the real test.

I really want to see him wearing a miner's helmet in West Virginia. Oh yeah, and throwing back a few shots at the bar.