"Swift Boats" stories continue to flounder......

[agcatter]

Kerry is the one who has wrapped himself in Vietnam.  He has only himself to blame if he is so interested in "other issues"

I for one would be happy to instead discuss Kerry's 20 yr senate voting record.  However, Kerry doesn't exactly want to go there.  Don't blame him.

[mddem2004]

Simple question for you.

Was John Kerry in Cambodia on Christmas of 1968?

Simple question for you.....Does it really freakin matter?

You want to know what does?

- The 4 million more uninsured Americans since Bush took office.
- The fact that under Bush we have less jobs in this country than when he was selected.
- The fact that Bush has led us into a quagmire in Iraq for erroneous reasons, and the majority of the country now view it as a grave mistake.
- The mountain of additional Red Ink that has accumulated under
the fiscal policy's of this president, debt that will be left to be paid by my children long after Bush is but a distant night mare of a memory.

These are the things that matter in this election......

I'll leave you in that still unwinable war in the jungles of Vietnam.

[ATFFL]

mddem, I have some terrible news for you.  Making Vietnam the focus of the election was John Kerry's choice, not Bush or the media.  Kerry put himself into the position where it does matter where he was in 1968.  

Kerry could have made any or all of the issues you mention the focus of his campaign (though his own statements make Iraq a tough issue for him.)  Instead he chose to make the focus of his convention events 35+ years in the past.

If you think it is irrelevant, you need to tell that to John Kerry, not Carl Hayden.  

[CARLHAYDEN]

Simple question for you.

Was John Kerry in Cambodia on Christmas of 1968?

Simple question for you.....Does it really freakin matter?

You want to know what does?

- The 4 million more uninsured Americans since Bush took office.
- The fact that under Bush we have less jobs in this country than when he was selected.
- The fact that Bush has led us into a quagmire in Iraq for erroneous reasons, and the majority of the country now view it as a grave mistake.
- The mountain of additional Red Ink that has accumulated under
the fiscal policy's of this president, debt that will be left to be paid by my children long after Bush is but a distant night mare of a memory.

These are the things that matter in this election......

I'll leave you in that still unwinable war in the jungles of Vietnam.

I notice you were unwilling to answer the question, and instead are trying to change the subject.

Is this because you know the answer, and it isn't pleasant for Kerry?

[mddem2004]

No......not at all carlhaden,
Kerry probably wasn't in Cambodia on Christmas in 1968.
He probably wasn't there until a few weeks later.

Big woop....

His point is the same, our forces shouldn't have been there in that time period, yet they were.

Interestingly, I saw on CNN last night, an audio tape of Mr. O'Neil in the Oval Ofice talking with Nixon, where he states that he was in Cambodia in that time period.

Yet of course Mr. O'Neil states today that it was impossible for Kerry to have been in Cambodia.

And of course the news today that Bush's top outside council was giving these guys legal advise, as well as the old fella that appeared in the second ad was Bush's  chairman of the campaign's veteran's committee, and the groups PR lady actually met in the office of the VP back in May, - the presidents claim that they have nothing to do with this committee is truly quite comical.

Think they over played their hand maybe???

Face it - These guys stories are being shot up so badly with every passing day you should do yourself a favor for your own credability and quit defending these Swift Boat Liars For Bush stories as Truth.......its really pretty sad because ya know, every now and then you do make sence - not on this issue though.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Trederick - fair enough statement,
However by Kerry pointing to his service record as a means of highlighting his lifelong service to this country, something Bush doesn't have, certainly points to the two very different paths these two chose in their early lives.

Actually Kerry is only running with something that worked for him since Iowa. Once Rassman showed up and began campaigning with Kerry in early Jan in Iowa - it finally put a personal face on Kerry's campaign and it obviously worked.

PR wise its not a bad package either - Kerry goes to Vietnam after Yale - Bush didn't after leaving Yale. Kerry is a combat Vet, knows what its like to kill  - Bush doesn't. May make a difference to those who have loved ones overseas in Iraq where Bush's policys are obviously in trouble. And the tag line Kerry has - "we didn't care if we were rich or poor, or what our backgrounds were, we were literally in the same boat", ain't a bad campaign theme and dove tails nicely with Edwards picture of two Americas - something that I fear A LOT of Americans feel these days.

So no, I can't blame Kerry for taking the theme he has. In fact, I think that the viciouness of the attacks against him show that the Right are damn scared they may lose some of the vet vote. As you know Bush has to have a double digit lead in that normally Republican block. We'll see if that happens.

[khirkhib]

Where was Kerry on December 25, 1968.  It is pretty easy to assume that he was on a Swift Boat in South-East Asia, more specifically probably in the jungles of Vietnam near the border of Cambodia.  He probably went into Cambodia around that time.  He isn't basing his campaign on where he was in Cambodia.

There are a lot bigger question marks as to where Bush was during his service in the Air National Guard - whole months of his location are unknown.  Did Bush not take the medical exam because he would have failed the drug test, probably.  Why do you think he didn't take it.  The only thing that Bush has ever publicly said about his Cocaine use before was that he would have passed the drug test during his father's administration.  Meaning that he hadn't used Cocaine for 7 years prior to when Bush I became president.  So what we do know is that Bush hasn't done Cocaine since 1982.  Omitting the truth is not better than lying.  I think that Kerry has been very open about his past and what he has done.  Bush's time-line is vieled in mystery.

What is more important to you.  That Kerry inaccurately stated that he was in Cambodia on Christmas Day when in fact it was around Christmas or that Bush has been misdirecting and left his past in a smoke cloud.

[CARLHAYDEN]

No......not at all carlhaden,

Kerry probably wasn't in Cambodia on Christmas in 1968.

Well, as the old adage goes, we have begun the journey of a thousand miles with this one step.

What was "seared" in Kerry's memory (his word), was false.

Lets go to the next question, did John Kerry throw HIS medals over the White House fence?

[AuH2O]

Yeah, it's pretty funny people are trying to spin the Cambodia thing, because it is so obvious Kerry lied.

"Seared, seared." That Nixon ordered him in 1968? An intelligent person running for President would realize Nixon was not President then. That the Khmer Rouge were not operational at the time? That the Swift Boats didn't do gun running?

It's not so much that he wasn't in Cambodia EVER- though he probably wasn't- but the fictional details he has surrounded his service with. A hat given to him by a "CIA agent." Christmas eve. The gun running. And he used those LIES for political purposes on the floor of the US Senate.

His own journal admits his 1st Purple Heart was a result of self-inflicted wounds. Yet Democrats won't even admit that... if you won't accept facts that are clearly, demonstrably, 100% true, then you should not discuss it. Your mind is made up and it will not change, no matter what the evidence. Political ends trump truth and integrity.

The story of the political left, from their Soviet admiration days to now.

[ATFFL]

There is a down side to the strategy he has taken.  A few, actually.

First, his testimony before congress is very fair game.  While you can have factual disputes with the first Swifties ad, the second, the one using Kerry's testimony, is the far more powerful ad and factually indisputable.  The North Vietnamese did play that testimony to the POWs to try and break their will to resist and get them to condemn the US government.

Second, you can question his recollection of events, such as Carl is doing.  While not a complete condemnation of the man his making up events, or at least embellishing them to try and give them greater impact, is a sign of his character.

Third, why does Kerry not want to talk about anything form the end of his tour until the beginning of 2004?  He is trying to skip the last 35 years of his life, which includes a lot of his time in service to his country.  Why does he not want to talk about his senate record?  Why does he not want to talk about his time as Lt. Governor of Mass?  He is not running on a lifetime of service, he is running on 4.5 months of service and trying to avoid the rest of his service.

Fourth, you cannot reject all criticism out of hand on how you plan to run.  That would be akin to Bush running on is record and demanding that there be no mention of anyone job losses or the deaths of US soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan.  If Kerry continues to run on his Vietnam experience he cannot demand there be no negative words spoken about it.

[khirkhib]

Swift Boat Writer Lied on Cambodia Claim

54 minutes ago  

By ELIZABETH WOLFE, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The chief critic of John Kerry (news - web sites)'s military record told President Nixon in 1971 that he had been in Cambodia in a swift boat during the Vietnam War — a claim at odds with his recent statements that he was not.  

"I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border," said John E. O'Neill in a conversation that was taped by the former president's secret recording system. The tape is stored at the National Archives in College Park, Md.

In an interview with The Associated Press on Wednesday, O'Neill did not dispute what he said to Nixon, but insisted he was never actually in Cambodia.

"I think I made it very clear that I was on the border, which is exactly where I was for three months. I was about 100 yards from Cambodia," O'Neill said in clarifying the June 16, 1971, conversation with Nixon.

Chad Clanton, a spokesman for the Democratic presidential candidate, said the tape "is just the latest in a long line of lies and false statements from a group trying to smear John Kerry's military service. Again, they're being proven liars with their own words. It's time for President Bush (news - web sites) to stand up and specifically condemn this smear."

O'Neill served in Vietnam from 1969-70 and says in a recent book that he took command of Kerry's swift boat after the future Massachusetts senator returned home from the war.

O'Neill has emerged as a leading figure in the attacks on Kerry's war record. He is co-author of "Unfit for Command," which accuses Kerry of lying about his record, and is a member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which has aired two television commercials harshly critical of Kerry.

In the book, O'Neill wrote that Kerry's accounts of having been in Cambodia on Christmas Eve of 1968 "are complete lies."

"... Kerry was never ordered into Cambodia by anyone and would have been court-martialed had he gone there," he wrote. O'Neill wrote that the Navy positioned its own craft along the border area to make sure no American vessels strayed across the border from Vietnam.

In an interview Sunday on ABC's "This Week" O'Neill said: "Our boats didn't go north of, only slightly north of Sedek," which he said was about 50 miles from the Cambodian border.

Kerry's campaign has acknowledged that he may not have been in Cambodia on Christmas Eve of 1968, as he has previously stated. The campaign says Kerry does recall being on patrol along the Cambodia-Vietnam border on that date, although it's unclear if he crossed into Cambodia.

Referring to the tape of the Oval Office meeting with Nixon, O'Neill criticized Kerry for making claims, including in the Senate, that he was in Cambodia.

"I've never represented on the floor of the Senate, or told people 50 times like John Kerry did that I was in Cambodia. That never happened. And I don't think he was ever there either," O'Neill said.

The snippet of taped conversation surfaced after more than a week of controversy surrounding claims that Kerry lied about his actions in a war in which he won five military medals. The Democrat and his allies have vigorously attacked such claims as a smear, laboring to undermine the charges as well as cast doubt on the men who are making them.

For his part, Kerry accused the swift boat group of being a "front group" that was doing Bush's dirty work.

The Bush campaign denies any involvement with Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

[AuH2O]

Part of the whole problem with Kerry's Cambodia lies is the TIME he was in Vietnam.

After Kerry left, there was a slight pickup in activity along the Cambodian border and into Cambodia. O'Neill, as the story notes, was not on the boat at the same time as Kerry. Thus, if O'Neill strayed 50 yards into Cambodia, that has no bearing on Kerry's tall tales.

And this still avoids the issue of Kerry's Christmas Eve lie- which is known 100% to be a fabrication. When you have absolute proof someone lied about their record, it becomes more reasonable to think there are other distortions.

In any case, no one disputes that Swift boats operated near the border. What they dispute is Kerry's lie that he dropped off CIA agents, ran guns, and fought the Khmer Rouge.

Those are lies. Plain and simple. Not ad hominem attacks or red herrings can change that.