Opinion of quote.
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Author Topic: Opinion of quote.  (Read 765 times)
phk
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« on: March 22, 2008, 01:27:26 PM »

"The Iraq War seemed to present the odd spectacle - a veritable reversal of intellectual galaxies - of a conservative American president proclaiming the gospel of liberty, with liberals faling back on a surly belief that liberty can't be spread to Muslim lands" - Fouad Ajami
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Michael Z
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« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2008, 03:13:38 PM »
« Edited: March 22, 2008, 03:15:41 PM by Michael Z »

Bullsh**t.

I can't even begin to assess all the things wrong with that quote. An assumption that the Iraq war was about "bringing liberty" to Iraq. An insulting misrepresentation of liberals who doubted the war. A belief that you can just "bring liberty" to a country by bombing the s*** out of it. Ugh.
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Kaine for Senate '18
benconstine
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2008, 04:52:50 PM »

Total BS
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Iosif is a COTHO
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2008, 01:20:07 AM »

I do agree with the spirit of the quote. I found it disconcerting how many liberals refused to recognise any good in removing Saddam.
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2008, 11:14:49 AM »

Well, after having looked up this Ajami fellow on Wikipedia I'm not suprised by this quote. He's basically a neo-con with close personal ties to Paul Wolfowitz, Condi Rice, and Dick Cheney.
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Michael Z
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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2008, 06:34:09 PM »
« Edited: March 26, 2008, 06:42:38 PM by Michael Z »

I do agree with the spirit of the quote. I found it disconcerting how many liberals refused to recognise any good in removing Saddam.

Argh. I don't think anyone would deny that removing Saddam was a good thing - but at what price? So the hellhole known as Iraq turns into an even bigger hellhole? It's madness.

That aside, had the intentions behind the invasion of Iraq been laid out from the start, had there been more of a concerted effort to turn Iraq into a functioning state after victory, and had I actually trusted any of the powers-that-be to do a good job, which, frankly, I didn't due to an already laid out track record of incompetence and smugding of facts, and had they not relied on a deliberate campaign of misinformation and xenophobic propaganda (remember the Niger "link"? 45 minutes to destruction? Freedom fries? The Axis of Weasels? The Dixie Chicks?) then I might have been more at ease with this campaign. But alas, I wasn't.
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Beet
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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2008, 10:12:22 PM »

"The Iraq War seemed to present the odd spectacle - a veritable reversal of intellectual galaxies - of a conservative American president proclaiming the gospel of liberty, with liberals faling back on a surly belief that liberty can't be spread to Muslim lands" - Fouad Ajami

There is some truth to it, but the Bush administration's soaring rhetoric about Middle Eastern liberalism has been much less than its potential, because of many factors.

Firstly, America is the bastion of world liberalism and democracy, and to best proclaim the 'gospel' as Mr. Ajami describes it, it should at the least safeguard, at best nourish, its own reputation, and the Bush administration's false pretense that it was not looking for a war, then its false justification of it; and the very notion of a unilateral, unprovoked war itself, has not been good for its own reputation, including in my parts of the muslim world.

Secondly, the Bush administration was true to its word, until faced with a domestic political rebuke in 2006, was not interested in nation-building. It was merely interested in having a war and winning a war, and then digging in to its established position. A flailing, violent democratic state that could not keep order, performed well below its economic potential, and which had a huge unnecessary casualty rate, in 2003-2007 at least, didn't do wonders for selling democracy anywhere.

The combination of a poorly justified unilateral attack and the failure to nation-build, which for a long time caused the Iraqi government to be too lack full sovereignty (and it's questionable whether they have today) severely weakened, I think in the minds of many, the appeal of what happened in Iraq, for few would want in their own countries such a democracy established by foreign power in that manner.

Finally the administration has had a poor record of showing any investment in the resolution of other regional issues such as the numerous issues between Israel and its neighbors, and taken an unproductive approach toward Iran. Arguably the invasion of Iraq increased political insecurity in Iran and strengthened the hand of hardliners there.

I think the rhetorical justification and sentiments were correct, but the actions undermined those. The increase in isolationism within liberalism though, is troubling.
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