Slimy Tactics By Which Party?

[MarkDel]

The thread on John Kerry and his alleged affair has been very interesting, but the most interesting thing BY FAR has been the comments by the poster WAKIE.

WAKIE has said over and over again that this is another example of the Republican slime machine and how he's amazed that rank and file Republicans are so quick to buy into such horrible tactics. I find Wakie's comments INCREDIBLE.

Wakie, here are just a few of the Democratic Party's proud moments from campaigns in recent memory.

1. Presidential candidate Howard Dean actually floats the theory that it's possible that President Bush had advance knowledge of and/or was responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

2. Beloved Democratic Senator Ted Kennedy says the War in Iraq was a concocted by Republican strategists in Texas for political gain, thus implying that President Bush would gladly kill US soldiers to win an election.

3. Democratic Congressman Jim McDermott says he would believe Saddam Hussein was telling the truth before George Bush.

4. Numerous Democrats say the President was AWOL in the National Guard when there is no record to suggest this and he WAS granted an honorable discharge. Funny thing is that a person cannot be AWOL from the National Guard unless their unit is called up for active duty, and since Bush's unit never was called up, it's IMPOSSIBLE for him to be AWOL.

5. Democratic Presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich states that it is official Bush policy to target civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq.

6. Numerous Democrats call Bush a Nazi, then Democratic fundraisers Moveon.org run a commercial where Bush morphs into Hitler and no prominent Democrats condemn Moveon.org.

7. Former Democratic Presidential candidate Al Gore calls Bush a traitor to his country in a speech less than a week ago and no Democrat disavows this.

8. In Texas, The Democratic Party runs an ad claiming that because Republcians don't support Hate Crime legislation, more black people like James Byrd will be murdered. Byrd was killed by racists who dragged him behind the back of their truck. The ad ignores the fact that the Byrd killers were eligible for the death penalty even without Hate Crime legislation. What are they gonna do, kill the guys twice?

9. In Missouri, the Democratic Party runs an ad saying that every time you cast a vote for a Republican, you cast a vote for the burning of another black church.

And it's the Republicans who engage in slime? Perhaps you can find me an example of a prominent Republican official who called John Kerry a Nazi, or a traitor, or implied that he was behind the mass murder of thousands of Americans?

The Democratic Party has been getting a FREE PASS from this administration for the past several months as Bush and his crew sit back and try to "take the high road." Well, with dropping poll numbers and a second term in jeopardy for the first time since early 2001, it's about time that Bush, Rove and the rest of the boys take my advice and start fighting back against the vermin like Howard Dean and Ted Kennedy, and of course the king of all vermin, Democratic National Chairman Terry McAuliffe.

[MarkDel]

Wakie,

Also, in one of your posts you lament the fact that the Republicans won't debate the issues which is why they engage in dirty politics. WELL...

Let me issue a challenge to you. Let's you and I debate the real issues right here in this forum, you represent Kerry and I'll represent Bush. We'll start a seperate thread for it and we'll take turns presenting an issue that we feel is important. Once that post is made, the other person will have JUST 10 MINUTES to post a response, that way it's like a real debate and you can't engage in the favored tactic of "cut and paste" that most liberals utilize in political forums. It really should be less than 10 minutes, but I'm not sure how fast you type, so I'll cut you some slack.

If you accept the challenge, let's schedule a time later this evening to begin. Then we'll let other posters here decide who makes the stronger argument. Deal???

[Gustaf]

Wakie,

Also, in one of your posts you lament the fact that the Republicans won't debate the issues which is why they engage in dirty politics. WELL...

Let me issue a challenge to you. Let's you and I debate the real issues right here in this forum, you represent Kerry and I'll represent Bush. We'll start a seperate thread for it and we'll take turns presenting an issue that we feel is important. Once that post is made, the other person will have JUST 10 MINUTES to post a response, that way it's like a real debate and you can't engage in the favored tactic of "cut and paste" that most liberals utilize in political forums. It really should be less than 10 minutes, but I'm not sure how fast you type, so I'll cut you some slack.

If you accept the challenge, let's schedule a time later this evening to begin. Then we'll let other posters here decide who makes the stronger argument. Deal???

First off, you accused both Wakie and California Dreamer of using the word "slime machine". Do you mean that both of them do?

Secondly, I don't think liberals are the only ones to use cut and paste...

And thirdly I bet most of the Republicans will think you made the stronger case and most Dems will think Wakie did...

[MarkDel]

Gustaf,

1. They did both use the phrase.

2. Yes, Republicans cut and paste too...just far less often.

3. That could be, but if there is a neutral person on this site (perhaps you?) then let them be the judge. You have shown an objective side in some of your posts, though you are generally more combatitive with Republicans than Democrats.

[Ben.]

On the Bush as Hitler thing (sorry not to address all your points but I don’t have much time)... remember that GA Cleland had ads showing him morphing into Osama... as far as I am concerned that contest in GA was pretty nasty... And yet President Bush’s staff throw their hands up in horror if the Presidents record in the National Guard is ever questioned… if you attack Cleland on these issues then allow your opponents to do like wise… “he who lives by the mantel of war leader dies by the mantel of war leader”.

Those who either opposed the War in Iraq or legislation brought in under the pretext of being necessitated by the "war on terror" have repeatedly been branded as "Unpatriotic".

Really that is all I have time for… for now so there we go…

PS; I personally have no time for the wild conspiracy that either Kucinich or Dean attempt to give credence to… however some of what you refer to as smears are valid points, including The probing of Bush war record, the failure of Republicans to support hate crime legislation in Texas and Kennedy seems to have been right suggesting the war had a political motivation when his statement is read against the reports of Paul O’Neil and the facts that companies associated with administration members and the Republican Party in general benefited from the War.      

     

[MarkDel]

Ben,

I've seen this argument made several times by Democrats, but where have you seen any prominent Republican elected official say John Kerry was unpatriotic? If you CHOOSE to interpret attacks on his voting record as such...maybe you should ask yourself why that's what you hear even though no one actually says it.

As for your claim that Kennedy had a point...or that the Hate Crime ad was legitimate...well, you seem like a better person than that quite frankly.

[Gustaf]

Gustaf,

1. They did both use the phrase.

2. Yes, Republicans cut and paste too...just far less often.

3. That could be, but if there is a neutral person on this site (perhaps you?) then let them be the judge. You have shown an objective side in some of your posts, though you are generally more combatitive with Republicans than Democrats.

3. That might be b/c Republicans more often post things that makes me combatitive...like gay-bashing, anti-democracy or anti-Europe. But that's just a guess...

I think I am neutral in the sense that I try not to let my emotions cloud my judgement, but I won't comment myself on my sucess or failure on that.

2. I don't know if you have any statistics on past-and-copy habits of internet users cross-referenced with ideological positions, but it souds like the normal political bias of politically active people (the media is against us, are oponents are stupid and unfair, etc).

1. OK, then, just checking.

And don't ask me why I answered these in the wrong order, cause I have no idea...

[MarkDel]

Gustaf,

Gay Bashing? Cite me an example of a Republican on this forum engaging in Gay Bashing.

Anti-Democracy? Republicans aren't the ones who want a socialist state, cite me one example of a Republican saying he prefers another form of government to Democracy.

Anti-Europe? Many are guilty as charged.

[Gustaf]

Gustaf,

Gay Bashing? Cite me an example of a Republican on this forum engaging in Gay Bashing.

Anti-Democracy? Republicans aren't the ones who want a socialist state, cite me one example of a Republican saying he prefers another form of government to Democracy.

Anti-Europe? Many are guilty as charged.

I will try and dig up the quotes for you..hang on.

[Gustaf]

Oh no. You're not gay too, are you. So far I have been the most recent to discover (supposedly everyone knew) that migrendel and hughento were gay. Eww, that's just gross.

Here we go with one quote of many by him on that subject...

[Gustaf]

I like gerrymandering as it tends to increase the power of the two large political parties and increase stability in government.  Of course its easy to say that nowadays with a majority Republican House.

That's one example, there's a better one somewhere.

[NHPolitico]

On the Bush as Hitler thing (sorry not to address all your points but I don’t have much time)... remember that GA Cleland had ads showing him morphing into Osama... as far as I am concerned that contest in GA was pretty nasty... And yet President Bush’s staff throw their hands up in horror if the Presidents record in the National Guard is ever questioned… if you attack Cleland on these issues then allow your opponents to do like wise… “he who lives by the mantel of war leader dies by the mantel of war leader”.

Chambliss' ads didn't morph Cleland into Osama bin Laden.

This is the ad:

[Begins with footage of Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein]

Voiceover: "As America faces terrorists and extremist dictators, Max Cleland runs television ads claiming he has the courage to lead."

[Photo of Max Cleland appears]

"Max Cleland says he has the courage to lead. But the record proves Max Cleland is just mis'lead'ing. Max Cleland has voted against the president's vital homeland security efforts 11 times."
--------

This ad by Chambliss came AFTER an attack ad by Cleland on Medicare and Social Security.

Those who either opposed the War in Iraq or legislation brought in under the pretext of being necessitated by the "war on terror" have repeatedly been branded as "Unpatriotic".
   

Who called someone unpatriotic?  Show me when and where and who?

[MarkDel]

Gustaf,

Come on...the poster PD is about 12 years old, so his anti-gay comments are not a good example of posters at this site.

And Opebo's comments are not anti-Democratic anymore than it's anti-Democratic to gerrymander seats for the purpose of creating Black Congressional Districts.

[NHPolitico]

Oh no. You're not gay too, are you. So far I have been the most recent to discover (supposedly everyone knew) that migrendel and hughento were gay. Eww, that's just gross.

Here we go with one quote of many by him on that subject...

I don't agree with PD, but that's not gay bashing.  I don't think migrendel and hughento, even, have such thin skins that they'd call that gay bashing.

[NHPolitico]

I like gerrymandering as it tends to increase the power of the two large political parties and increase stability in government.  Of course its easy to say that nowadays with a majority Republican House.

That's one example, there's a better one somewhere.

An example of what? Stating the obvious is a slimy tactic?

[Gustaf]

Gustaf,

Come on...the poster PD is about 12 years old, so his anti-gay comments are not a good example of posters at this site.

And Opebo's comments are not anti-Democratic anymore than it's anti-Democratic to gerrymander seats for the purpose of creating Black Congressional Districts.

He's 15. There's JMF as well, but he's more tolerant, he just thinks they're sinners who'll burn as hell, but I can accept his view since I see it's logical from his viewpoint.

I don't get your point on Opebo? Did I call gerrymandering democratic? What are you talking about there?

Here's another post by him, btw:

Let me get this straight, Opebo...you are saying that Bush SHOULD fake Bin Laden's capture or death just to win the election???

JUST to win the election?  I guess I consider the election a bit more important than you do.

[Gustaf]

Oh no. You're not gay too, are you. So far I have been the most recent to discover (supposedly everyone knew) that migrendel and hughento were gay. Eww, that's just gross.

Here we go with one quote of many by him on that subject...

I don't agree with PD, but that's not gay bashing.  I don't think migrendel and hughento, even, have such thin skins that they'd call that gay bashing.

If someone called me gross I would probably be offended, but that's me I guess...

[Gustaf]

I like gerrymandering as it tends to increase the power of the two large political parties and increase stability in government.  Of course its easy to say that nowadays with a majority Republican House.

That's one example, there's a better one somewhere.

An example of what? Stating the obvious is a slimy tactic?

No...not being in favour of democracy is one of the things that can make me upset...that's what MarkDel and me are currently discussing.

[NHPolitico]

I like gerrymandering as it tends to increase the power of the two large political parties and increase stability in government.  Of course its easy to say that nowadays with a majority Republican House.

That's one example, there's a better one somewhere.

An example of what? Stating the obvious is a slimy tactic?

No...not being in favour of democracy is one of the things that can make me upset...that's what MarkDel and me are currently discussing.

So, supporting gerrymandering is being opposed to democracy?

[Gustaf]

I like gerrymandering as it tends to increase the power of the two large political parties and increase stability in government.  Of course its easy to say that nowadays with a majority Republican House.

That's one example, there's a better one somewhere.

An example of what? Stating the obvious is a slimy tactic?

No...not being in favour of democracy is one of the things that can make me upset...that's what MarkDel and me are currently discussing.

So, supporting gerrymandering is being opposed to democracy?

Ehhh..yeah, why wouldn't it be?

[NHPolitico]

I like gerrymandering as it tends to increase the power of the two large political parties and increase stability in government.  Of course its easy to say that nowadays with a majority Republican House.

That's one example, there's a better one somewhere.

An example of what? Stating the obvious is a slimy tactic?

No...not being in favour of democracy is one of the things that can make me upset...that's what MarkDel and me are currently discussing.

So, supporting gerrymandering is being opposed to democracy?

Ehhh..yeah, why wouldn't it be?

Because people are allowed to vote however they want regardless of their party registration?

[Gustaf]

I like gerrymandering as it tends to increase the power of the two large political parties and increase stability in government.  Of course its easy to say that nowadays with a majority Republican House.

That's one example, there's a better one somewhere.

An example of what? Stating the obvious is a slimy tactic?

No...not being in favour of democracy is one of the things that can make me upset...that's what MarkDel and me are currently discussing.

So, supporting gerrymandering is being opposed to democracy?

Ehhh..yeah, why wouldn't it be?

Because people are allowed to vote however they want regardless of their party registration?

Gerrymandering can still bias the system to ensure election voctories for one side with a very small percentage of the vote, and leave large groups unrepresented. It goes against the idea of democracy.

[NHPolitico]

I like gerrymandering as it tends to increase the power of the two large political parties and increase stability in government.  Of course its easy to say that nowadays with a majority Republican House.

That's one example, there's a better one somewhere.

An example of what? Stating the obvious is a slimy tactic?

No...not being in favour of democracy is one of the things that can make me upset...that's what MarkDel and me are currently discussing.

So, supporting gerrymandering is being opposed to democracy?

Ehhh..yeah, why wouldn't it be?

Because people are allowed to vote however they want regardless of their party registration?

Gerrymandering can still bias the system to ensure election voctories for one side with a very small percentage of the vote, and leave large groups unrepresented. It goes against the idea of democracy.

I'd prefer Iowa-style districts, but gerrymandering is democratic-- as democratic as is required in a republic.

[MarkDel]

Gustaf,

I'm still interested in seeing an example of a Republican on this site saying they were opposed to Democracy...

[Gustaf]

Gustaf,

I'm still interested in seeing an example of a Republican on this site saying they were opposed to Democracy...

*sigh*

There's 26 000 posts on this forum. It's hard to find specific ones easily. Opebo has stated that he's thankful for the fact that Bush can win without a majority of the popular vote, and that democracy is mob rule and should be limited, and that the politicl system is designed to prevent too much democracy. I can't find the specific posts right now, and I don't really care that much about it.

I don't know what you think of me, but I don't generally make up reasons to attack people, it would be kind of stupid.