McCain/Sanford vs. Obama/Sebelius

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Um... I think that McCain winning Connecticut or Pennsylvania or Wisconsin is more "insane" than winning the west or Virginia. I think most people would agree that a candidate of the incumbent party winning during a recession, an unpopular war, and the term of a 28% approval-rating President is "insane."

When did I say that everyone knows Obama? I was making the point that no one really knows McCain or Obama yet. There is still plenty of time for both candidates to be defined. But, so far, whenever Obama is introduced to new voters, they like him, despite what the Clinton machine (which I would argue is more powerful, more smoothly run than whatever Karl "the Republicans will hold congress in 2006" Rove throws at us) has tried.

When you first hear Obama speak, you do feel inspired. Even I like the way he speak .. the same with Huckabee. But good speeches don't equate to great leaders. People are voting based on what he says.

[Keystone Phil]

why is there maps with obama winning kentucky and tennessee? why oh why?

Thank you for some sanity!

He stole 2000 and picked up 2 seats in 2002 while the President had a 60%+ approval rating. WHAT A GENIUS.

Nicely ignoring 2004 plus some nice spin with the other two elections.

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Haha, ok.

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What a joke. If issues don't matter, why does it matter that McCain is far too conservative?

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

This is what I'm thinking - yes, I think KS will be a lot closer with Sebelius on the ticket.

O/S - 289 52.6%
M/S - 249 46.7%

[Lief 🗽]

why is there maps with obama winning kentucky and tennessee? why oh why?

Thank you for some sanity!

He stole 2000 and picked up 2 seats in 2002 while the President had a 60%+ approval rating. WHAT A GENIUS.

Nicely ignoring 2004 plus some nice spin with the other two elections.

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Haha, ok.

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What a joke. If issues don't matter, why does it matter that McCain is far too conservative?

Btw, I agree that Obama wouldn't have a chance short of a national landslide in KY, TN or WV.

In 2004, an incumbent president during a time of war with a decent economy barely defeated a lackluster candidate. Again, whoopee.

Because you think it matters that Obama is too liberal. If you want to argue issues, which I argue that people don't really concern themselves with, Obama is much more mainstream than John McCain.

[Keystone Phil]

In 2004, an incumbent president during a time of war with a decent economy barely defeated a lackluster candidate. Again, whoopee.

LOL the spin!

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Haha, right. Ok.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Well no.

2004 - Was a national security election with a significant defection to the Republicans from the Democrats biggest single voting bloc.

2000 - With the exception of GWHB - modern VP elections are usually close. 1960, 1968, 2000

[Lief 🗽]

In 2004, an incumbent president during a time of war with a decent economy barely defeated a lackluster candidate. Again, whoopee.

LOL the spin!

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Haha, right. Ok.

You seriously think that Bush's defeat of John Kerry was some masterful political task, that only a genius like Karl Rove could have accomplished? Riiiiight...

Okay, you can dismiss my point, but it's valid. On the issues: Iraq? Obama. Iran? Obama. Healthcare? Obama. The economy? Obama. The environment? Obama. What issues is McCain more mainstream than Obama on?

[Keystone Phil]

You seriously think that Bush's defeat of John Kerry was some masterful political task, that only a genius like Karl Rove could have accomplished? Riiiiight...

You forget the accomplishments they made with Congressional races?

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"The economy," "Healthcare," "The environment"...it's pointless to argue this with you. You are so set in believing that vague Obama is so mainstream on such general topics.

[Ban my account ffs!]

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Just one question. McCain has been in the Senate for 25 years. What has he done in that time? What are his accomplishments? Apart from a bit of years-old campaign finance reform that no-one cares about and most people who do care about don't like.

There's one candidate here who should really fear an examining of his record.

I'm not even talking about accomplishments because we've had that battle here before (though if you really wish to go into it, fire away). I'm talking about the record in general. Obama is far too liberal. Right now all people know is HOPE anc CHANGE. That only works for so long.

Um... I think that McCain winning Connecticut or Pennsylvania or Wisconsin is more "insane" than winning the west or Virginia.

LOL I never said he'd win CT and considering WI and PA are states that are true swing states and even show McCain leading, your comparison is even more of a joke.

 I think most people would agree that a candidate of the incumbent party winning during a recession, an unpopular war, and the term of a 28% approval-rating President is "insane."

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Ok, sure.

P.S. - Karl Rove won in 2000, 2002 and 2004 > losing in 2006.

I think the fact that Obama, a progressive liberal, is polling better than John McCain, a "maverick" center-right conservative says a lot about how election 2008 is in no way comparable to any election of the past few decades.

Furthermore, the fact that none of the people posting in this thread, myself included, were alive the last time we had an election anything like 2008 just shows that we maybe don't have the expertise or the experience to really know what the hell is going to happen in November.

All I see from you, Phil, and Naso, is a bunch of maps where you switch a few states around and call as close to 50/50 as you can with your candidate still managing to take the win.

That is a great sign of hackishness right there:  You can't admit that just maybe your candidate could lose.

Hell, Obama could fall on his face and lose in a landslide.  My map showing an Obama landslide was not a map of "OMG OBAMAS GONNA RULE THE QWORLD LOLZ@!!!", but instead, that for the first time ina long time, we could see states flipping or a full out electoral landslide in one direction or the other.

All that comes from you guys is "Okay... let's just extrapolate 2004 a smidge, flip Colorado and Wisconsin, maybe give 'em Iowa, and then berate everybody else because they're actually excited about the political process and have a candidate who is young, charismatic, and new."

The people that post maps that show Obama winning Kansas and Montana might be people that don't have a lot of experience with electoral politics, but all that you've shown us is someone who has thought about it a whole lot and still managed to come up with nothing new.

[Lief 🗽]

You seriously think that Bush's defeat of John Kerry was some masterful political task, that only a genius like Karl Rove could have accomplished? Riiiiight...

You forget the accomplishments they made with Congressional races?

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"The economy," "Healthcare," "The environment"...it's pointless to argue this with you. You are so set in believing that vague Obama is so mainstream on such general topics.

Er... they would have gained 0 seats if not for the illegal redistricting in Texas. How is tying, if not for cheating, an accomplishment?

Alright, more specific issues, if you'd like. Universal healthcare? Obama. Minimum wage? Obama. Taxes? Obama. Terrorism? Obama. Pulling out of Iraq? Obama. Pursuing alternate energy? Obama. Seriously, name me some issues that McCain is more mainstream than Obama on.

[TheresNoMoney]

Obama is a good speaker, but is an empty head in an empty suit. 

The guy was at the top of his class at Harvard Law and was the editor of the Harvard Law Review. He is the most naturally intelligent candidate on either side.

[Keystone Phil]

All I see from you, Phil, and Naso, is a bunch of maps where you switch a few states around and call as close to 50/50 as you can with your candidate still managing to take the win.

Or I think it will be fairly close (like most) instead of showing my candidate winning in a complete landslide (like you).

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Point out for me where I said my candidate couldn't lose. Please. Go. Now.

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More reasonable than having a liberal Democrat winning LA, KY, TN, MT, MO, etc. And I'm the hack?

Er... they would have gained 0 seats if not for the illegal redistricting in Texas. How is tying, if not for cheating, an accomplishment?

Uh, I'm pretty sure that we'd still take the House and maybe you forgot about the Senate?

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Desire for universal healthcare is mainstream? Tax hikes are mainstream? How is he mainstream on "terrorism." So very, very vague just like your overrated candidate.

[Saxwsylvania]

Obama is a good speaker, but is an empty head in an empty suit. 

The guy was at the top of his class at Harvard Law and was the editor of the Harvard Law Review. He is the most naturally intelligent candidate on either side.

I'm not sure what 'naturally' intelligent means, but whatever. 

We can certainly have it both ways.  He will be an out-of-touched intellectual who is naive on foreign policy.

[Lief 🗽]

Phil, the days of the Reaganism are over. People are no longer scared silly by taxes and the boogeyman of government. They understand that if we want a balanced budget and a government safety net, we shouldn't be cutting taxes for the very wealthy and hoping that some of their excess money "trickles down." They understand that a first world nation shouldn't have 40 million people uninsured. They understand that the healthcare industry is over-charging, that they can no longer afford to pay the medical bills, and that things need to change. The free market cannot solve everything, and unfortunately for the regressive party, ordinary Americans are beginning to understand that again.

Thanks, though, for returning to attacks instead of debate.

[TheresNoMoney]

Desire for universal healthcare is mainstream?

Absolutely.

Tax hikes are mainstream?

On the wealthiest top few percent, yes. Especially in a time of recession and a big deficit. And Obama is proposing a middle class tax cut so that will help as well.
 

How is he mainstream on "terrorism."

61% of the country wants us out of Iraq within a year. The Obama plan gradually withdraws our troops over the span of 16 months. McCain says no end in sight and the possiblity of another 100 years in Iraq.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

In 2004, an incumbent president during a time of war with a decent economy barely defeated a lackluster candidate. Again, whoopee.

LOL the spin!

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Haha, right. Ok.

You seriously think that Bush's defeat of John Kerry was some masterful political task, that only a genius like Karl Rove could have accomplished? Riiiiight...

Okay, you can dismiss my point, but it's valid. On the issues: Iraq? Obama. Iran? Obama. Healthcare? Obama. The economy? Obama. The environment? Obama. What issues is McCain more mainstream than Obama on?

The GOP picked up many congressional seats in 2004. The war wasn't going well and Bush's approval rating was below 50% at most points during the election, yet he won with 51% of the popular vote and won Ohio and Florida by safe margins. The GOP also countered the HUGE Democratic voter turnout pushes by the media to vote for Kerry which people said would blow away the GOP. And guess what, they did it.

I'm done arguing. It's obvious that no one here will ever believe Obama has any negative aspects at all. He's better on just about every issue known to man. He's going to magically talk to rogue states and terrorists to reach peace agreements. Wow. It's a lost cause to win an argument with you all. It's clear you believe Obama will win in a landslide and only he can do it. Only he can do anything worthwhile.

He's a far left candidate and yet everyone believe he is some how mainstream. His victory speech tonight, in which he tried to explain some of his positions, was essentially telling everyone that he was a traditional liberal, left wing candidate. How anyone can dispute that is beyond me--and it isn't just helping the poor. His whole platform is one of a leftist.

[Sam Spade]

Ugh...  kids

If only we could predict that far in the future, we'd be...

Well not here, and if it were me, I'd be gambling in Vegas.

[Lief 🗽]

AHDuke99,

You're ridiculous, and it's obvious that you're not listening to any of us.

NONE OF US are saying that Obama is some perfect, negativeless anomaly. Only you're saying that.

The fact is, despite your ridiculous far-right attacks on mainstream policies like a minimum wage and a pull-out from Iraq, it is your candidate, not ours, that sits far, far away from the center.

[TheresNoMoney]

The Republicans on this board are stuck in a 2002/2004 mindset.

Public opinion has changed drasticlly over the past 3-4 years, Bush has gotten incredibly unpopular since 2004 (as has the Iraq War), we are slipping into recession, and there is a lot of Republican fatigue at this point.

[Keystone Phil]

Phil, the days of the Reaganism are over. People are no longer scared silly by taxes and the boogeyman of government. They understand that if we want a balanced budget and a government safety net, we shouldn't be cutting taxes for the very wealthy and hoping that some of their excess money "trickles down." They understand that a first world nation shouldn't have 40 million people uninsured. They understand that the healthcare industry is over-charging, that they can no longer afford to pay the medical bills, and that things need to change. The free market cannot solve everything, and unfortunately for the regressive party, ordinary Americans are beginning to understand that again.

Thanks, though, for returning to attacks instead of debate.

How did I attack?

Thanks for the Dem talking points.

Desire for universal healthcare is mainstream?

Absolutely.

Tax hikes are mainstream?

On the wealthiest top few percent, yes. Especially in a time of recession and a big deficit. And Obama is proposing a middle class tax cut so that will help as well.
 

How is he mainstream on "terrorism."

61% of the country wants us out of Iraq within a year. The Obama plan gradually withdraws our troops over the span of 16 months. McCain says no end in sight and the possiblity of another 100 years in Iraq.

Ok, we separated "Iraq" and "Terrorism" so stop recycling answers. Thanks.

The Republicans on this board are stuck in a 2002/2004 mindset.

Public opinion has changed drasticlly over the past 3-4 years, Bush has gotten incredibly unpopular since 2004 (as has the Iraq War), we are slipping into recession, and there is a lot of Republican fatigue at this point.

And your are stuck in the thought process that the Dems will landslide no matter what.

[TheresNoMoney]

And your are stuck in the thought process that the Dems will landslide no matter what.

I never said that, but I definitely expect Obama to beat McCain.

[exopolitician]

The Republicans on this board are stuck in a 2002/2004 mindset.

Public opinion has changed drasticlly over the past 3-4 years, Bush has gotten incredibly unpopular since 2004 (as has the Iraq War), we are slipping into recession, and there is a lot of Republican fatigue at this point.

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They wont landslide, but they are in a hella better position to win the White House currently then the Republicans are.

[TheresNoMoney]

Obama wins all the Kerry states + Nevada, New Mexico, Colorado, Iowa, Ohio, Virginia, and probably Missouri.  Florida is possible but unlikely.

.

[Keystone Phil]

Obama wins all the Kerry states + Nevada, New Mexico, Colorado, Iowa, Ohio, Virginia, and probably Missouri.  Florida is possible but unlikely.

Probably Missouri? Give me a break.

[exopolitician]

Obama wins all the Kerry states + Nevada, New Mexico, Colorado, Iowa, Ohio, Virginia, and probably Missouri.  Florida is possible but unlikely.

Probably Missouri? Give me a break.

I dont see why not...if they do win it it'll be incredibly close. Florida not so sure about...I think McCain has the sunshine state in the bag.