Who's more liberal?

[© tweed]

I say Kerry.

[zachman]

I voted Kerry. Why is Dean considered liberal? I'd consider him more independent.

[© tweed]

I voted Kerry. Why is Dean considered liberal? I'd consider him more independent.

Because he's angry and his opposition to the Iraq war has been magnified.

[Beet]

Also because he wants to repeal all the Bush tax cuts whereas Kerry would only repeal those for the very wealthy.

Also because he would not have voted for war authorization whereas Kerry did.

Also because he signed into law the nation's first gay union law.

[Wakie]

It depends on the issue.

[M]

It actually is Kerry. But Dean is a madman, which more than makes up for it.

[zachman]

Dean was ordered by the state court to sign the law, and has been a supporter of allowing civil unions ever since. Liberal on that, fair enough, liberal on Iraq [going to a war in a time of increasing peace is not actually liberal] sure. Being a fiscal conservative should not make one be considered a liberal.

Why is being a liberal a bad thing? At least you believe in something solid.

[© tweed]

It actually is Kerry. But Dean is a madman, which more than makes up for it.

Yep.  Because Dean is always angry and yelling, he comes across as more liberal.

[Demrepdan]

It actually is Kerry. But Dean is a madman, which more than makes up for it.

Yep.  Because Dean is always angry and yelling, he comes across as more liberal.

Which once again supports the old saying..."You can't judge a book by it's cover."

[Michael Z]

I remember reading that Kerry is a liberal who comes across as a moderate, and Dean a moderate who looks like a liberal.

I can't remember exactly who said it and where (apologies if it was someone here), but it's a notion I definitely agree with.

[Gustaf]

I remember reading that Kerry is a liberal who comes across as a moderate, and Dean a moderate who looks like a liberal.

I can't remember exactly who said it and where (apologies if it was someone here), but it's a notion I definitely agree with.

It was someone here...but I don't remember who. Might have been on the Wisconsin thread.

[Gustaf]

... surly it would be better from their perspective to nominate a liberal who seemed like a moderate rather than am moderate who is seen as liberal?  

I did it again!

[Michael Z]

... surly it would be better from their perspective to nominate a liberal who seemed like a moderate rather than am moderate who is seen as liberal?  

I did it again!

Good work, detective.

Anyway, yeah, Ben said it. Credit to him.

[Ben.]

Always good to hear good things said about myself…

What I was saying at the time was that I couldn’t understand all these liberal activists supporting Dean so strongly when he is in reality a moderate commonly perceived as a hard-line liberal while Kerry is fairly liberal Senator who most perceive as a moderate… I just don’t get these liberals placing so much faith in Dean who has a history of pissing off the liberals in Vermont while they lambast Kerry as a Conservative and no different to Bush (check out the Liberal Dem forums to see what I mean)… I mean its bizarre…it really is… I suppose that more than anything its Dean’s anger and fiery rhetoric that attracts these liberal Dems to him.

Disclaimer: I myself am a fairly moderate Dem… and for a while Dean for me seemed a promising candidate… by the fall I had become quite worried about the guy and after Iowa these doubts seemed wholly justified so I may be a bit biased…well there you go…

Back onto topic… in the end any Democratic nominee will get the obligatory Republican smear of “Your Liberal… Liberal is Bad”, and these attacks from Dean and his supporters might actually help with the wider electorate and when placed with someone like Edwards or another “common touch” southern moderate as well as Kerry’s war hero status this could all go a long way to frustrating any attempt to pigeon hole Kerry as a Liberal in the mind of the electorate… what ever the truth…    

[MarkDel]

The people who said "Kerry is a liberal who seems like a moderate" and Dean is a "moderate who seems like a liberal" are 100% on target.

Kerry is CLEARLY the more liberal of the two based on their actual positions and voting records...and it's not even close.

BUT...the real question is why they are so misperceived...why don't you Democrats on the forum ponder that question for a moment. In the immortal words of the Ape Doctor Zaius in the movie "Planet of the Apes" "Be careful what you seek, because you may not like what you find..."

[MarkDel]

Come on Democrats, you have to SOME theory on the reason(s) behind this misperception. I've got a really good idea why, but I want to hear your thoughts first.

[12th Doctor]

Come on Democrats, you have to SOME theory on the reason(s) behind this misperception. I've got a really good idea why, but I want to hear your thoughts first.

Come on.  Tell us Mark, I want to hear it.

[MarkDel]

Supersoulty,

OK. The reason that the moderate Howard Dean is perceived as a liberal, and the liberal John Kerry is perceived as a moderate, has everything to do with their respective demeanors and overall attitude.

What I mean is this...in the modern political world, liberals are thought of as angry and negative people who view the "American Cup" as half empty instead of half full. Think of the Left Wing pundits you see on political talk shows like Hardball, O'Reilly, Hannity & Colmes, etc...people like Katrina Vanden Heuvel, Michael Moore, Al Franken, Senator Ted Kennedy, etc, etc...

Modern liberals have turned into "foaming at the mouth" extremists, which is why Dean is perceived as liberal even though his voting record is moderate. In fact, EVEN OTHER LIBERALS mistook him for a liberal because they related to his bitterness, which is part of why the hard left wing of the Democratic Party endorsed Dean so enthusiastically, the other part being his hard anti-war stance. Kerry is more measured and less "shrill" than Dean, hence he's thought of as a sensible moderate even though his voting record is somewhere in the vicinity of Chairman Mao.

And this view is indicative of the ABSOLUTE FLIP FLOP of political perceptions that I've witnessed in my lifetime. When I was kid, "conservative" was a dirty word and people proudly called themselves liberals. There was a phrase used to describe Barry Goldwater as a "wild eyed conservative" and that was the perception in the 1960's and 1970's. But starting with the Reagan Revolution, all of that began to change, and 20 years later only 18% of Americans identify themselves as liberals. Hell, even liberals don't call themselves liberals anymore...they now call themselves "progressives" because subconsciously they are too worried about the negative perception automatically associated with being a self-admitted liberal. A liberal calling himself a progressive is like a fat person calling himself "gravity challenged" LOL

Sorry Democrats...try and dispute the fact that liberals are perceived as more negative than other political persuasions.

[StevenNick]

Dean is certainly a liberal, but he's not a consistent liberal.  On some issues he's very liberal (the war, civil unions, taxes, etc.) but he still managed to get a 100% rating from the NRA.  John Kerry may not be as liberal on the war or on taxes, but he's is more consistently liberal on a whole host of other issues.  In general, John Kerry is by far the more liberal of the two.

[TheWildCard]

Mark pretty much hit it on the head. If you listen to their speechs and overall attitudes Dean seems more liberal but you break it down to voting and Kerry is as liberal as Ted Kennedy.

I voted for Kerry. Like you couldn't figure that out lol

[12th Doctor]

Supersoulty,

OK. The reason that the moderate Howard Dean is perceived as a liberal, and the liberal John Kerry is perceived as a moderate, has everything to do with their respective demeanors and overall attitude.

What I mean is this...in the modern political world, liberals are thought of as angry and negative people who view the "American Cup" as half empty instead of half full. Think of the Left Wing pundits you see on political talk shows like Hardball, O'Reilly, Hannity & Colmes, etc...people like Katrina Vanden Heuvel, Michael Moore, Al Franken, Senator Ted Kennedy, etc, etc...

Modern liberals have turned into "foaming at the mouth" extremists, which is why Dean is perceived as liberal even though his voting record is moderate. In fact, EVEN OTHER LIBERALS mistook him for a liberal because they related to his bitterness, which is part of why the hard left wing of the Democratic Party endorsed Dean so enthusiastically, the other part being his hard anti-war stance. Kerry is more measured and less "shrill" than Dean, hence he's thought of as a sensible moderate even though his voting record is somewhere in the vicinity of Chairman Mao.

And this view is indicative of the ABSOLUTE FLIP FLOP of political perceptions that I've witnessed in my lifetime. When I was kid, "conservative" was a dirty word and people proudly called themselves liberals. There was a phrase used to describe Barry Goldwater as a "wild eyed conservative" and that was the perception in the 1960's and 1970's. But starting with the Reagan Revolution, all of that began to change, and 20 years later only 18% of Americans identify themselves as liberals. Hell, even liberals don't call themselves liberals anymore...they now call themselves "progressives" because subconsciously they are too worried about the negative perception automatically associated with being a self-admitted liberal. A liberal calling himself a progressive is like a fat person calling himself "gravity challenged" LOL

Sorry Democrats...try and dispute the fact that liberals are perceived as more negative than other political persuasions.

LOL oh, yes of course.  That's part of what I was thinking, but I thought you had something much more complicated.

[Nym90]

I don't think that they are perceived more negatively. Extreme conservatives are viewed as frothing at the mouth fanatics too. That's true of both sides, not just liberals.

People who are more shrill are going to be viewed as more extreme, and people who sound more reasonable are going to be viewed as more moderate. That's true on both sides. Bush is a conservative who sounded like a moderate in 2000.

[TomC]

They are perceived in that way because that's the image they've each put forth. Kerry, who was very early on considered a front runner in the media, showed his general election face to push he is a competetive, mainstream candidate and deflect the stories he is Michael Dukakis redux. Dean, who was an asterik when Kerry was the early front runner, saw an opening and pushed himself as a liberal from the "Democratic wing of the Democratic Party." That's the basic message he espoused: I'm a liberal and I always tell the truth. I stand for things that are out of the mainstream, polls be damned." Maybe Dean used to be a moderate, but it is not what he sold, or IS trying to sell.

Based on his campaign rhetoric, Dean is more liberal on at least three important issues: 1) he has espoused a more protectionist- anti NAFTA stance. Kerry supports free trade. 2) Kerry supports keeping the middle class portion of the tax cut, Dean will spend the entire tax cut, 3) Kerry supported removing Saddam Hussein from power.  I guess: 4) Dean actually signed civil unions into law- Kerry would allow states to choose. Their position is basically the same.

[MarkDel]

Nym90,

Nice try, but....not really. Other than college campuses, San Francisco, and certain parts of Los Angeles and New York City, the average American has a FAR more favorable view of conservatives than liberals. I readily concede that this has rarely been true in the history of the United States, but it certainly IS true now..just go out and talk to your neighbors, you don't even need to see the polling data which shows fewer and fewer people call themselves liberals every year in this country.

As for your other comments..well...we do have some "foaming at the mouth" types on the Republican side. The only difference is that the extremists in our party are limited to talk radio slots and relatively powerless elected positions...in your party, the angry wackos end up as legitimate presidential contenders...see Howard Dean lately? How about Al Gore's speech yesterday? If Dean and Gore ever engaged in a political debate, you could sell tickets and hype it as "The Prozac Bowl"

[opebo]

Kerry is frightfully liberal - He would be the most liberal president since Johnson for gosh sakes!  Scary stuff.  Thank goodness there's a Republican House and Senate to hold him back, but I quail at the thought of the Supreme Court after a Kerry presidency.

And kudos to MarkDel for quoting Doctor Zeus!