The Strange Death of the National Party

[Filuwaúrdjan]

This is just weird...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3544896.stm

[minionofmidas]

Cool.
They're just following the lead of the voters...my relatives from Durban switched from voting National to ANC in the last elections. They'd voted ANC on the provincial level before, but not the national.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Cool.
They're just following the lead of the voters...my relatives from Durban switched from voting National to ANC in the last elections. They'd voted ANC on the provincial level before, but not the national.

Ah... the irony... the National Party merging in the *ANC*!
Who in 1948 would have thought that that was how the National Party would die...

[M]

Remind me again who this leaves? There's the other democratic party which is led by Anglos and Capetown coloreds (what is it called again?), the Inkatha Zulu, and maybe another?

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

The NNP is connected with the GOP via an organization called the International Democrat Union.  So will the ANC now pick up that affiliation?

This is kinda odd... I've heard about the lovey-dovey relationship between the NNP and the ANC but I'm not getting why the NNP could be so close to a party that has avowed communists as members.

[minionofmidas]

Remind me again who this leaves? There's the other democratic party which is led by Anglos and Capetown coloreds (what is it called again?)

Democratic Alliance

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The NNP is connected with the GOP via an organization called the International Democrat Union.  So will the ANC now pick up that affiliation?

This is kinda odd... I've heard about the lovey-dovey relationship between the NNP and the ANC but I'm not getting why the NNP could be so close to a party that has avowed communists as members.

The ANC is a member of the Socialist International

[AuH2O]

Note: by any agreed upon definition, South Africa is not a democracy, and never has been- though the Apartheid regime comes closer to a textbook definition.

Thus, "politics" there is largely irrelevant. In 50 years, there won't be any whites left there, and most probably not all that many blacks the way AIDS is going.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Ah yes, the African model of one party democracy. It sure works great in Zimbabwe!

One party democracy is hardly unique to Africa.  One need only look at the dominance of the PRI in Mexican politics and of the LDP in Japanese politics for many decades to see models similar to that of the ANC in current South African politics.  We've gone thru periods of one party democracy in the United States such as after the war of 1812 when the only viable party was the Democratic-Republican and during the Jim Crow era in the South when if you wanted to be elected, you had to be a Democrat.

The National Party never had a realistic hope of regaining power, as it or any successor would always be tainted by the memory of apartheid.  It is hard to say how long it will be before South Africa returns to multi-party demoracy, but it will eventually, and there is every reason to expect that it will be a peaceful transition such as happened in Mexico or Japan.  I'm not particularly worried about the prospect of South Africa going the way of Zimbabwe.  I won't say that it is impossible, but it is extremely unlikely.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Note: by any agreed upon definition, South Africa is not a democracy, and never has been- though the Apartheid regime comes closer to a textbook definition.

Thus, "politics" there is largely irrelevant. In 50 years, there won't be any whites left there, and most probably not all that many blacks the way AIDS is going.

You are sick

[AuH2O]

Requirement of democracy: competitive elections.

As far as South Africa, anyone with half, maybe even a quarter, of a brain can tell it's going downhill. It's upside is a smaller version of Nigeria, which I guess isn't too bad. They still have resources.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Requirement of democracy: competitive elections.

Wrong.
Democracy=Rule by/of the People. Whatever you think of the ANC, you have to admit that they have been the choice of the overwhelming bulk of SA's population three times in a row.

Apartheid stopped the vast majority of the population from having any choice at all.

[opebo]

Requirement of democracy: competitive elections.

As far as South Africa, anyone with half, maybe even a quarter, of a brain can tell it's going downhill. It's upside is a smaller version of Nigeria, which I guess isn't too bad. They still have resources.

I agree the future does not look good for South Africa.  

[Platypus]

Note: by any agreed upon definition, South Africa is not a democracy, and never has been- though the Apartheid regime comes closer to a textbook definition.

Thus, "politics" there is largely irrelevant. In 50 years, there won't be any whites left there, and most probably not all that many blacks the way AIDS is going.

You are sick

He isn't wrong though-1/3 of south african have aids, with that number expected to reach almost 50% by 2020, and the apartheid regime did offer text book democracy-but only to a small sample of the population.

If the system did have two or more parties that had a chance of winning, it would be more democratic then it is. That said, a unified one party state is better then a heavily divided multiparty state.

[opebo]

Note: by any agreed upon definition, South Africa is not a democracy, and never has been- though the Apartheid regime comes closer to a textbook definition.

Thus, "politics" there is largely irrelevant. In 50 years, there won't be any whites left there, and most probably not all that many blacks the way AIDS is going.

You are sick

He isn't wrong though-1/3 of south african have aids, with that number expected to reach almost 50% by 2020,

Interestingly, the hiv rate among white South Africans is extremely low - around British levels.  On the other hand, 1/3 is probably an exagerration - 20% is more realistic, however still horrific.  Hiv rates tend to be exaggerated for obvious reasons.

[AuH2O]

I should have clarified: the whites will have emigrated or been killed, while the blacks will suffer from AIDS.

AIDS, btw, could evolve to be substantially nastier if we continue to produce drugs that inhibit it without curing it. It might not be curable (in the forseeable future), if there are enough different strands. Nature has a tendency to get its way... Europe's population losses from the black plague were gargantuan... some places lost 2/3 in a short time span. AIDS works more slowly, but since it's victims live for years with the disease, it's difficult to isolate it or have it run its course.

[opebo]

I should have clarified: the whites will have emigrated or been killed, while the blacks will suffer from AIDS.

AIDS, btw, could evolve to be substantially nastier if we continue to produce drugs that inhibit it without curing it. It might not be curable (in the forseeable future), if there are enough different strands. Nature has a tendency to get its way... Europe's population losses from the black plague were gargantuan... some places lost 2/3 in a short time span. AIDS works more slowly, but since it's victims live for years with the disease, it's difficult to isolate it or have it run its course.

Oh, I understood you - the whites would emigrate.  I know I would.

As for aids.. I don't think its going to be demographically that significant outside of Africa.  

[M]

AIDS is also very significant in parts of the Caribbean.

[minionofmidas]

Back to topic:
De Klerk has resigned from the NNP because of these merger plans.

[AuH2O]

Um am I missing something? He's the screw-up, not the party... I don't think they wanted him to flush the country down the drain, though I could be wrong.

[Capey]

I think you guys are way too pessimistic about SA's future. Yes, we have a major problem with whites emmigrating. These were the people that had such a problem with Aparthied to begin with. Now that the system they wanted is in place, they run to Australia or Britain, or in the Afrikaaner's case, the Netherlands. In my opinion they are traitors of the worst sort.

As for the National Party, the NNP should have rejoined with the Democratic Alliance. They would have retained control over the Western Cape. The National Party seriously lost touch with it's base, the white and coloured voters.

[WMS]

Since no one else has done it yet...[zap]
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?board=14;action=display;threadid=7702
Okay, so I was wrong...but welcome nonetheless!

Welcome to the forum Capey! It's good to see a South African on the forum! You can share your unique perspective on topics such as the one on Zimbabwe I posted some while back (it may be back a page or three ). And good luck to the Democratic Alliance!

[Platypus]

I think you guys are way too pessimistic about SA's future. Yes, we have a major problem with whites emmigrating. These were the people that had such a problem with Aparthied to begin with. Now that the system they wanted is in place, they run to Australia or Britain, or in the Afrikaaner's case, the Netherlands. In my opinion they are traitors of the worst sort.

As for the National Party, the NNP should have rejoined with the Democratic Alliance. They would have retained control over the Western Cape. The National Party seriously lost touch with it's base, the white and coloured voters.

Yeah, there are heaps of white suid afrikaans (sp?) in Perth,, and a few here in Melbourne too. One of my english teachers was an indian south african; Ms. Singh. I also had a South African History teacher, Ms. Berlin

I don't think they're traitors. If you have the chance to live and work in a control that is better then your own, take it! Thats why there is immigration to countries like Australia, The Netherlands and Britain-they offer a better life.

I(f I thought living in Britain offered a better life, as some Australians have done, i wouldn't have a problem moving there. Coincidentally, more Brits more to Australia permanently then the other way around, but some people prefer for a variety or reasons to live in different areas.

I do have a serious question though-how well/poorly have the asian south africans fared from this? Under apartheid, they were sort of the second tier; after it some have said that they've become the third tier; because the whites still control many institutions, but the blacks are taking over some, leaving the Indians in the same position and slowly being overtaken by the blacks. Is this true, or will it become true, in your opinion?

[Capey]

They are traitors. And the better life argument doesn't hold water. It isn't as if they were living in Mongolia. They complain about apartheid all the time and say how the system would be so much better if the blacks were free. Then the blacks become free, and the country gets really bad, so they leave rather than try to work to make thier country a better place. You could NEVER say these people were/are patriotic. I think other countries could provide me with a better life, but I am a patriot and will not leave. If you would move to Britain if you thought it provided a better life than Australia then you are no patriot.

All races in SA that aren't white or black are referred to as coloured(It isn't a derogatory term as in the U.S. or the U.K.). This includes Indians and east Asians. They aren't any worse of than the whites in my opinion. Most either live in Cape Town or Durban. The Cape has the largest non-black population, so the coloureds are not particularly disenfranchised there. They make up the majority in Durban, which is a nice place that is prospering.

[opebo]

They are traitors. And the better life argument doesn't hold water. It isn't as if they were living in Mongolia. They complain about apartheid all the time and say how the system would be so much better if the blacks were free. Then the blacks become free, and the country gets really bad, so they leave rather than try to work to make thier country a better place. You could NEVER say these people were/are patriotic. I think other countries could provide me with a better life, but I am a patriot and will not leave. If you would move to Britain if you thought it provided a better life than Australia then you are no patriot.

Good lord, this is like saying the Jews were traitors who fled Germany when Hitler came to power, or escapees from behind the Iron Curtain, or boat people from Cuba and Vietnam were traiters.  People have a right to flee ill-governed States to improve their lives.