Cruel and Inhumane Treatment Bill [Passed]

[Verily]

Cruel and Inhumane Treatment Bill

1. The government of Atlasia officially condemns the practice of torture and affirms the principles of the Geneva Conventions as well as its commitment to its prohibition of cruel, degrading, inhumane, and/or humiliating treatment of suspects or prisoners.
2. No evidence obtained from the use of torture will be admissable as valid in a court of law.
3. All branches over which the Atlasian government has jurisdiction, including the military, are required to accord to non-citizens all of the relevant rights of citizens (namely, the right to a fair trial and the right to be free of cruel, degrading, inhumane and/or humiliating treatment).
4. The government of Atlasia will refuse to return any person to their home country if there is any chance that they will be tortured.

Sponsor: Ebowed

[Verily]

I have a problem with Clause 3 of this bill, which implies that the military must offer fair trials even for enemies on a battlefield (that is, active combatants, not captives). Clearly, this is absurd. I will be considering a way to amend the bill to remove this problem.

Also, "any chance" seems strong, given that even some developed countries (such as Japan) still have legal torture proceedings that, could, theoretically, be applied, though they never are. I therefore motion to amend Clause 4 to read "a reasonable possibility" instead of "any chance".

[Speed of Sound]

I request an amendment to clause three so that it states:


3. All branches over which the Atlasian government has jurisdiction, including the military, are required to accord to non-citizens all of the relevant rights of enemy combatants (namely, the right to be free of cruel, degrading, inhumane and/or humiliating treatment). Enemy combatants in a declared war shall be held, but not prosecuted, and traded or released back to their country. These decisions shall be made by military leaders. When in undeclared wars/terroristic acts, enemies participants caught shall be given a fair trial and read all relevant rights of a citizen.

[Ebowed]

I request an amendment to clause three so that it states:


3. All branches over which the Atlasian government has jurisdiction, including the military, are required to accord to non-citizens all of the relevant rights of enemy combatants (namely, the right to be free of cruel, degrading, inhumane and/or humiliating treatment).

Why can't enemy combatants have the right to a fair trial and be presumed innocent until proven guilty?  One of the points of this bill is to restore habeas corpus.

[Speed of Sound]

I request an amendment to clause three so that it states:


3. All branches over which the Atlasian government has jurisdiction, including the military, are required to accord to non-citizens all of the relevant rights of enemy combatants (namely, the right to be free of cruel, degrading, inhumane and/or humiliating treatment).

Why can't enemy combatants have the right to a fair trial and be presumed innocent until proven guilty?  One of the points of this bill is to restore habeas corpus.

Mainly because I dont think we should be prosecuting enemy combatants during a war, and should be returning them via trade during or after the war instead. Only during declared war. Fixed up. Do you prefer this amendment?

[Verily]

We are now voting on the following amendment:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.

[Verily]

Aye

[Hatman 🍁]

nay

[Ebowed]

Nay

Mainly because I dont think we should be prosecuting enemy combatants during a war, and should be returning them via trade during or after the war instead. Only during declared war. Fixed up. Do you prefer this amendment?

I would prefer to abolish the status of "enemy combatant", which I believe was officialized into law by Bush.

[Speed of Sound]

Mainly because I dont think we should be prosecuting enemy combatants during a war, and should be returning them via trade during or after the war instead. Only during declared war. Fixed up. Do you prefer this amendment?

I would prefer to abolish the status of "enemy combatant", which I believe was officialized into law by Bush.

Fair enough, but you know who I am talking about when I say that, and the edited amendment protects them probably more than the original law.

[afleitch]

Aye

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Aye.

[Јas]

Tally on Verily's Amendment
Aye: 3 (Verily; afleitch; Moderate)
Nay: 2 (Earl; Ebowed)
Yet to Vote: 5 (Brandon; Friz; Sam; Sensei; Speed of Sound)

[Speed of Sound]

Hmmm......abstain. Its too close of a call.

[Sensei]

aye

[Verily]

Updated Tally on Verily's Amendment
Aye: 4 (Verily; afleitch; Moderate; Sensei)
Nay: 2 (Earl; Ebowed)
Abstain: 1 (SoS)
Yet to Vote: 3 (Brandon; Friz; Sam)

[Brandon H]

Aye.

[Verily]

Result on Verily's Amendment
Aye: 5 (Verily; afleitch; Moderate; Sensei; Brandon)
Nay: 2 (Earl; Ebowed)
Abstain [Voted]: 1 (SoS)
Abstain [Didn't vote]: 2 (Friz; Sam)

With five in favor and one declared abstention, the amendment passes.

[Verily]

We are now voting on the following amendment. Please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.

I request an amendment to clause three so that it states:


3. All branches over which the Atlasian government has jurisdiction, including the military, are required to accord to non-citizens all of the relevant rights of enemy combatants (namely, the right to be free of cruel, degrading, inhumane and/or humiliating treatment). Enemy combatants in a declared war shall be held, but not prosecuted, and traded or released back to their country. These decisions shall be made by military leaders. When in undeclared wars/terroristic acts, enemies participants caught shall be given a fair trial and read all relevant rights of a citizen.

[Ebowed]

Nay; gives too much power to military leaders without consulting due process.  The new distinction for "enemy combatants" also does not consider whether these people will be tortured before they are sent back to their country.  (And, if possible, they could also be executed, which would contradict Atlasian policy elsewhere.)

[Speed of Sound]

Aye; Both torture and execution concerns arent worries, as we adhere to the Geneva Conventions, stopping that in its tracks, without cloggin up our judicial system.

[Brandon H]

Aye

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

I must say that I'm rather undecided on this one...

[Verily]

Nay. I have to agree with Ebowed about my dislike of the term "enemy combatant" as an arbitrary designation; we must return to the standard status of PoWs only. Therefore, I would support an amendment restating the rights of PoWs separate from the rights ennumerated in Section 3 (which would not be applied to PoWs necessarily). Any and all civilians should be treated with the rights of citizens, but Section 3 is currently too broad in its scope.

[Friz]

Nay.