Millitary service vs. Millitary posture attitude

[Citizen James]

I wasn't sure whether or not to post this, as it is a highly flamable subject, and possesses the potential to devolve into name calling - but I was curious, and two of the concepts being explored and debated in this campaign are:

1) whether we should project a millitarally agressive campaign to liberate all oppressed nations and root out all possible threats, or if it would be more pragmatic to use force only as a last resort, and rely on more traditional channels of diplomacy and police work.

2) Whether or not millitary service (and type of service) makes a person a better judge of when force is needed, and if non service makes a person less 'worthy' of making such judgements.

I am curious both as to people's comments and attitudes on this issues, as well as to how civilly it can be debated.   I have tried to ask these charged questions in as un-trollish a manner as I am able.

(For the curious, mine was option 8.)

Comments?

*On edit*

I noticed the fourth answer is incomplete - It should read:

 "Have not served in millitary - Support millitarily agressive foriegn policy."

  As of this edit there are 4 votes there, if there are any misvotes because of this error - please say so in comments.

[The Duke]

I think you'll get very few votes from people who have served.  Only people I can remember having served in any capacity are bejkuy (USMC?) and texasgurl (Texas National Guard).

Maybe I'm forgetting some people.

Some of the Euros may have served in their own militaries, I think it might be compulsory in Sweden, I know it is in Switzerland.

[bejkuy]

As one of the few posters who actually served in the millitary, I think that millitary service does little to change one's views.

I went in a conservative.  I came out a conservative.

Being in the millitary is not that big of a deal.  The Pat Tillmans of this world are the exception, not the rule.  Most people I know joined because it was financially adventageous  to or because they just enjoyed the lifestlye of a soldier.  

It is humorous to me the kind of hero worship that is being heaped on soldiers (as well as firemen and cops) today.  They're just doing the job they were hired for.  Big deal.  A friend of mine (still on active duty) is part of a blood drawing unit at the base.  He has never left the county, much less put his life in danger.  Yet he is the subject of such honor and praise everywhere he goes.  It's nice to be appreciated, but come on.  If you really want to show your appreciation, petition your congressman to pass a bill that would dramatically increase the wages of soldiers.  There are guys in Iraq making less than a grand a month before taxes, while trying to support a family!  

America is not a millitary dictatorship.  Serving in the millitary shouldn't  give a person more or less authority to make the moral decision of whether or not war is necessary.  

[opebo]

Have not, and never will, serve in the military.  However I support using it a lot.   That's what's so advantageous about a professional military as opposed to 'citizen soldiers' - they should expect to be put to work on a regular basis.  Their job? Killing the enemy.

[bejkuy]

Have not, and never will, serve in the military.  However I support using it a lot.   That's what's so advantageous about a professional military as opposed to 'citizen soldiers' - they should expect to be put to work on a regular basis.  Their job? Killing the enemy.

Believe it or not there are a lot of guys that join the millitary for that very reason.  As wimpy as our culture has become in many respects, it is still producing John Wayne types that like a good scrap.  They want to fight.

 An interesting not is that the combat segment of the millitary ( the people who actually do the fighting-not the mechanics, nurses, clerks, etc..) are a very close racial representation of the American people.

Opebo, would you agree with me that our fightin' men are grossly underpaid?  Especially compared to virtually every other "public servant" out there.

[The Duke]

I agree they're underpaid.

[12th Doctor]

I have not served, but I am contemplating it after I get my bachelors degree.  I figure that we need all the help we can get out there and I might as well put my money where my mouth is.  This also depends on the up coming election.  I have no desire to be in a John Kerry military, quite frankly.  I see this as a time when we can deal with the forces that plauge the world, or we can continue to sweap them under the rug.  If Mr. Kerry will not confront these problems, and his will not offer sufficeint support to the task or the troops, then I cannot serve (unless, of course, things get desperate).  If Bush is re-elected, then I am about 60% pro-joining.

Quite frankly, the military is not for everyone and one should not join unless they are damn certain they are willing to make the commitment.  I have not reached that point yet.

I also have some medical problems that might keep me out, but I will have to check.

[ijohn57s]

I have not served in the military. Right now I have no plans to. I am very pro-military though. The military is one place that I'm for government spending. I think it is vitally important that we have the world's strongest military so that we ward off threats with strenghth and respond well when we are attacked. Also, you can't pay our troops enough. They are badly underpaid.

[bejkuy]

Maybe we should unionize the millitary?  Wait, no, then they would surely vote dem.

I can see it now, the teamsters and the UAW fighting over who gets to represent the Army.  Maybe the could have a contract clause that guaranteed an 8 hour day?  Maybe they could fight to give Liddy England her job back.  

btw- I was a teamster for 5 years.

[The Duke]

Maybe we should unionize the millitary?  Wait, no, then they would surely vote dem.

I can see it now, the teamsters and the UAW fighting over who gets to represent the Army.  Maybe the could have a contract clause that guaranteed an 8 hour day?  Maybe they could fight to give Liddy England her job back.  

btw- I was a teamster for 5 years.

What if the Army went on strike?  No unions in the military.

[bejkuy]

I hope you recognize the satire in my post.

[The Duke]

I hope you recognize the satire in my post.

Of course, just trying to add to it.

[12th Doctor]

The Dutch Military actually is unionized, I believe.

[opebo]

Have not, and never will, serve in the military.  However I support using it a lot.   That's what's so advantageous about a professional military as opposed to 'citizen soldiers' - they should expect to be put to work on a regular basis.  Their job? Killing the enemy.

Believe it or not there are a lot of guys that join the millitary for that very reason.  As wimpy as our culture has become in many respects, it is still producing John Wayne types that like a good scrap.  They want to fight.

 An interesting not is that the combat segment of the millitary ( the people who actually do the fighting-not the mechanics, nurses, clerks, etc..) are a very close racial representation of the American people.

Opebo, would you agree with me that our fightin' men are grossly underpaid?  Especially compared to virtually every other "public servant" out there.

I'm sure they are, though I don't know exactly how much they make.

[Huckleberry Finn]

Some of the Euros may have served in their own militaries, I think it might be compulsory in Sweden, I know it is in Switzerland.

The military service is compulsory in Finland also. If you are Finnish male you have two alternatives. You have to go the military or the "civil service". Army takes 6-12 months and civil service about 14 (I'm not sure about that) Over 80% of Finnish males choose military and only hippie-style leftists choose civil service.

I saw one really rock-style guy in the bus some days ago and he told his friend about his military service! And this guy looked totally unmilitaristic. He had make-up on his face!!!

Unfortunately I haven't served in Military. They exempt me from because of health reasons. AND HOW THAT PISSES ME OFF! I mean all my friends (excluding one) have served. (I haven't served in the civil service either  

I tried two times in the army, but what you can do? Health is health. (It wasn't the serious health problem tough)

Dunn (who was active member in the spring) is veteran of war. He served in Israel army during the Lebanon War in the early 80's.

[The Dowager Mod]

#7

[angus]

Their compensation, in dollars, is pretty low.  And E1 gets something like 20 grand per year.  About the same as the guy who mops spooge up off the floor after peepshows.  But unlike that guy, the soldiers and sailors get their teeth fixed for free, college money, etc.  So, it's hard to quantify what is "underpaid"

I voted Never served.  I would also support the return to Republic from Empire, except that once that can of worms is opened it can't be easily closed.  Given that empire is upon us, I think we are left with no reasonable alternative except maintaining the most kick-ass army in the world.  Whatever the cost.  

What about these judges that allow you to do some years in the Navy instead of going to jail for drug or non-violent property crimes?  I think it's a good idea, on one hand.  If I'm going to feed and clothe a criminal for years, might as well get some service out of it.  On the other hand, do you want a military full of misfits rather than garden variety John Wayne types?  Hard call.  I suppose if it is your job to sneak around, kill people, and blow stuff up, it doesn't really matter, as long as you can stomach blood and give abject loyalty to the defense of the country.

[angus]

wow.  33 years in the Navy.  That's impressive.  I only knew of one kid who did get the option, and it was maybe 1989 or so.  Good guy too, who turned out to be a respectable English teacher after a four-year stint in the Navy.  But he was smart, and probably had a very high asvab score.  I agree with the top brass on the point you made, but I'm not sure how controversial that is.  I have written that very thing on this forum before in the DO You support the Draft? poll.  I also believe a volunteer Navy is better motivated than a conscript Navy.  Maybe pay should be connected to skill level, but then you'd have everyone joining the Navy because of the high-tech jobs and higher pay, and no one joining the Army, right?  

[bejkuy]

Generally speaking, you cannot get into the Army, Navy, etc.. unless you have an asvab score of at least 50.

Your score coincides with your percentile.  ie 91 would mean you are in the top 9%, A 22 would put you in the top 78%.

This means that you have to be in the top 50% of people in the US when it comes to aptitude.

The National Guard, at least 10 years ago, is a different story.

Today's millitary is no place for dummies.