Proportional Representation Bill [Passed]

[Hatman 🍁]

Nay

[Ebowed]

Nay

[Brandon H]

Aye

[Јas]

I would strongly urge those who broadly support the move to PR-STV to vote in favour of the amendment.

Nay.

Dare I ask, why the Nay vote here but the Aye vote on the previous version?

[Sam Spade]

I would strongly urge those who broadly support the move to PR-STV to vote in favour of the amendment.

Nay.

Dare I ask, why the Nay vote here but the Aye vote on the previous version?

Since I have been accused of being predictable in my voting, so much so that others can make assumptions about my beliefs, I am now introducing a certain amount of randomness in voting patterns on issues I don't care about.

[Verily]

I would strongly urge those who broadly support the move to PR-STV to vote in favour of the amendment.

Nay.

Dare I ask, why the Nay vote here but the Aye vote on the previous version?

Since I have been accused of being predictable in my voting, so much so that others can make assumptions about my beliefs, I am now introducing a certain amount of randomness in voting patterns on issues I don't care about.

I must say that, if that's serious, it greatly reduces my opinion of you as a Senator.

[Sam Spade]

I would strongly urge those who broadly support the move to PR-STV to vote in favour of the amendment.

Nay.

Dare I ask, why the Nay vote here but the Aye vote on the previous version?

Since I have been accused of being predictable in my voting, so much so that others can make assumptions about my beliefs, I am now introducing a certain amount of randomness in voting patterns on issues I don't care about.

I must say that, if that's serious, it greatly reduces my opinion of you as a Senator.

Such is life - you can't please everyone.  Actually, I doubt I can please many people on the forum these days even if I tried - and I'm too stubborn to try.

Needless to say, I will be opposing this bill, regardless of what form it appears in - largely for the departing Senator Keystone Phil's reasons...

[Јas]

Needless to say, I will be opposing this bill, regardless of what form it appears in - largely for the departing Senator Keystone Phil's reasons...

Well, based on your previous post:

4. Proportional Representation Bill:  Undecided

I hadn't figured that your opposition was such a given.

Would you be willing to explain your opposition in further detail?
Because (i) I'm willing to try and build a consensus position; and (ii) I really don't understand Phil's point.

[Hatman 🍁]

I would strongly urge those who broadly support the move to PR-STV to vote in favour of the amendment.

I'm sorry, but I dont support this "countback" method.

[Јas]

I would strongly urge those who broadly support the move to PR-STV to vote in favour of the amendment.

I'm sorry, but I dont support this "countback" method.

I do not believe it to be the best method either (and have made my reasons known earlier in this very thread), however it seems clear to me that its inclusion is necessary if PR-STV is to have a genuine chance at being implemented.

If this amendment is voted down, I think the chances of getting reform here are minimal. That is why, I urge an Aye vote on the amendment.
 

[Ebowed]

But countback is gross

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Urgh, I hate countback too.  Are special elections really so awful in the case of a resignation?

[Hatman 🍁]

Mr. Vice President, I think we have at least three Senators who support PR but oppose this amendment. Do you really think implementing countback will increase the chances of this bill passing? 

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Honestly, my final vote wouldn't swing at all on whether it's countback or special elections.  It's just that I strongly prefer special elections than having a 3-month-old opinion stand.

If Senator Lieberman resigns mid-term, should Ned Lamont get to replace him by default cause he got the second most number of votes?  Ugh.

[Brandon H]

I would strongly urge those who broadly support the move to PR-STV to vote in favour of the amendment.

I'm sorry, but I dont support this "countback" method.

What would you support for vacancies? And please read the flaws with a by-election before suggesting that one.

[Hatman 🍁]

I would strongly urge those who broadly support the move to PR-STV to vote in favour of the amendment.

I'm sorry, but I dont support this "countback" method.

What would you support for vacancies? And please read the flaws with a by-election before suggesting that one.

Sorry, I support a special election. The only flaw is it wouldn't be using an STV-PR system.

[Brandon H]

Reread the flaws with a special election. It defeats the entire point of the STV method.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Nay

Here's a possible solution; take into account sitting Senators (does that make sense? I know what I mean, but I'm not sure how clear putting it like that is...)

[Verily]

Another solution is to simply have a vacancy until the next election. In the current District system, that would mean an entire District going unrepresented, but in an STV system it just means the number of Senators falls from 10 to 9.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Another solution is to simply have a vacancy until the next election. In the current District system, that would mean an entire District going unrepresented, but in an STV system it just means the number of Senators falls from 10 to 9.

Yeeesssss... but if enough Senators resign during a given Senate, the Senate could well fall below its quorum.

[Colin]

Another solution is to simply have a vacancy until the next election. In the current District system, that would mean an entire District going unrepresented, but in an STV system it just means the number of Senators falls from 10 to 9.

Yeeesssss... but if enough Senators resign during a given Senate, the Senate could well fall below its quorum.

I definitely agree with Al here. There have been times when we have had multiple resignations during the course of one Senate. This could cause major problems and begin to affect the composition of the Senate and the ability to actual conduct Senate business.

[Verily]

On the other hand, if enough Senators resign, a by-election for all the seats at once doesn't cause the same problems that a single IRV by-election would. A two-seat STV by-election would be far more palatable to those opposed to by-elections, I think.

[Sam Spade]

I have additional reasons why I'm opposed to this, but I'm going to wait posting them until this weekend, when I actually have time to discuss it.

Also, the vote on the amendment is 1-4, with 1 Senate seat vacant.

[Brandon H]

On the other hand, if enough Senators resign, a by-election for all the seats at once doesn't cause the same problems that a single IRV by-election would. A two-seat STV by-election would be far more palatable to those opposed to by-elections, I think.

I misread your post and it did give me an idea. You said "a by-election for all the seats". I realize now that you meant all vacant seats, but I would accept a by-election for all 5 of the STV seats. It would make it a little more complicated than necessary, but would keep things fair in the manner that a by-election for only the vacant seat would not.

[Јas]

Mr. Vice President, I think we have at least three Senators who support PR but oppose this amendment. Do you really think implementing countback will increase the chances of this bill passing? 

I think this bill could pass without Countback, however the upcoming Constitutional Amendment will require 2/3 support in this chamber (and then majority support in 4 regions). Support for the reform needs to be as broad based as possible if it is to be achieved.

Brandon's support is important in helping to pass not just the bill but also the upcoming amendment. My understanding of his position is that he would prefer a system of replacing vacancies such that the replacement will cause a significant shift in the ideological balance of the Senate. Countback will usually achieve this end. For other replacement options see here.

In short, if the cost of Brandon's support is to remove by-elections in favour of an alternative method of replacing vacancies, then I believe it is very worthwhile. That is why I urge support for the present amendment.