Biden condemns ICC for requesting an arrest warrant for Netanyahu

[TheReckoning]

Charging both sides in a war is insane

Why?

Would you support charging FDR and Churchill for the firebombing of Dresden .

No because German civilians were legitimate targets during WWII.

Why were they legitimate in a way Gazans are not?

[DaleCooper]

Charging both sides in a war is insane

Why?

Would you support charging FDR and Churchill for the firebombing of Dresden .

No because German civilians were legitimate targets during WWII.

Why were they legitimate in a way Gazans are not?

The German war effort was unsustainable without civilian support.

[TheReckoning]

Charging both sides in a war is insane

Why?

Would you support charging FDR and Churchill for the firebombing of Dresden .

No because German civilians were legitimate targets during WWII.

Why were they legitimate in a way Gazans are not?

The German war effort was unsustainable without civilian support.

Neither in Hamas’s. In fact, the only reason why Hamas hasn’t been wiped out yet is because the Gazan population is so hellbent on ensuring that they aren’t.

[Oregon Eagle Politics]

Charging both sides in a war is insane

Why?

Would you support charging FDR and Churchill for the firebombing of Dresden .

No because German civilians were legitimate targets during WWII.

Why were they legitimate in a way Gazans are not?

The German war effort was unsustainable without civilian support.

Neither in Hamas’s. In fact, the only reason why Hamas hasn’t been wiped out yet is because the Gazan population is so hellbent on ensuring that they aren’t.

Bibi is the one who propped up Hamas in the first place to prevent a viable 2SS from ever happening.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html

[DaleCooper]

I just thought of a flawed but somewhat interesting comparison here. The pro-Israel people seem to be operating under the feds' Waco logic. David Koresh and his men were child molesters and arms-dealers and cultists, so let's go in guns blazing. Well, yeah, that's true of Koresh, but that building is full of women and children. Why are we opting for the shock and awe approach? It's like they have no concept of what constitutes an immediate or existential threat and collateral damage relative to the threat we're dealing with. It's not like the Branch Davidians had a nuclear bomb that needed to be seized immediately, casualties in the raid be damned.

Gaza isn't taking over the world, so any comparison to something like Germany is absurd. The Palestinians aren't even capable of taking over any piece of Israeli land, nor do they have any potential to become a nuclear power in the future. It's a joke to act like they're a Hitlerian threat.

[Ferguson97]

Neither in Hamas’s. In fact, the only reason why Hamas hasn’t been wiped out yet is because the Gazan population is so hellbent on ensuring that they aren’t.

Half of the Gazan population is children.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Neither in Hamas’s. In fact, the only reason why Hamas hasn’t been wiped out yet is because the Gazan population is so hellbent on ensuring that they aren’t.

Half of the Gazan population is children.

And they are Hamas' hostages as well. Maximizing casualties among them is part of the Hamas strategy.

It's depraved, it's evil, and Israel makes an effort to minimize their deaths even as they're actively sabotaged. But they can not and will not let that make them abandon the war forced upon them.

[Pres Mike]

While there were certain actions the allies did to win WW2 that was wrong in hindsight, I find it silly to compare actions of state actors now vs the 1940s. We have several international institutions dedicated to prevent the horrors of the 20th century from ever happening again.

[Ancestral Republican]

The actions of a floundering government: https://www.barrons.com/news/israel-warns-of-serious-consequences-for-ties-with-countries-recognising-palestinian-state-75a3c8c2

Bibi is a right wing authoritarian increasingly isolated on the world's stage.

A big tragedy in all of this is that Bibi has been synonymous with Israel for the majority of many of our lives. It's why many people assume Israel will always act like it has under his disastrous leadership - untrue - and why people feel compelled to defend things like his failed, intractable, scorched-earth war strategy.

[Dereich]

The World Wars are precisely why we have international institutions, including legal ones. The fact that international law is more honored in the breach isn’t an argument against its necessity.

For better or worse, the ICC is a joke and at best a decidedly mediocre institution that no one took seriously until it engaged in anti-Israel virtue signaling.  Whatever one thinks of the merits of the idea behind the organization, this much is true.

I'm sure the Congolese, Ugandan, Sudanese, Malian, and Central African military and political figures who are or very recently were in custody due to the ICC would disagree. Dislike it all you want, but the ICC is one of the few organizations that has ever actually done something about enforcing justice for perpetrators crimes against humanity. I'd think its the only one that has done so across multiple conflicts. Its statements on this (and other conflicts, like its warrant against Putin) are newsworthy and widely reported because its record gives it a moral authority regarding war crimes that both Israel and Hamas lack. If it really was a "decidedly mediocre institution that no one took seriously" its statements would have been ignored like the vast majority of the statements made about this conflicts by no-name organizations have been.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

The World Wars are precisely why we have international institutions, including legal ones. The fact that international law is more honored in the breach isn’t an argument against its necessity.

For better or worse, the ICC is a joke and at best a decidedly mediocre institution that no one took seriously until it engaged in anti-Israel virtue signaling.  Whatever one thinks of the merits of the idea behind the organization, this much is true.

I'm sure the Congolese, Ugandan, Sudanese, Malian, and Central African military and political figures who are or very recently were in custody due to the ICC would disagree.

There's a reason some called it the "International Colonial Court", and evidently that's exactly what both American political leadership and certain posters here thought it should be. To have let Netanyahu off the hook here would have only proven the stereotype right, whereas to take the risk of charging him creates the possibility that the ICC could actually be taken seriously as a credible and impartial institution instead of a feckless puppet.

[TheReckoning]

A big tragedy in all of this is that Bibi has been synonymous with Israel for the majority of many of our lives. It's why many people assume Israel will always act like it has under his disastrous leadership - untrue - and why people feel compelled to defend things like his failed, intractable, scorched-earth war strategy.

Israel’s government was terrible far before Bibi or Likud were in power, as a simple understanding of Israeli history would tell you.

[Brittain33]

A big tragedy in all of this is that Bibi has been synonymous with Israel for the majority of many of our lives. It's why many people assume Israel will always act like it has under his disastrous leadership - untrue - and why people feel compelled to defend things like his failed, intractable, scorched-earth war strategy.

Israel’s government was terrible far before Bibi or Likud were in power, as a simple understanding of Israeli history would tell you.

Is your argument that the situation hasn't changed for the worse regarding settlements in the West Bank since Netanyahu came to power? I suppose Israel's government is always going to seem terrible to people who find the country illegitimate, if that describes your beliefs.

[OSR stands with Israel]

A big tragedy in all of this is that Bibi has been synonymous with Israel for the majority of many of our lives. It's why many people assume Israel will always act like it has under his disastrous leadership - untrue - and why people feel compelled to defend things like his failed, intractable, scorched-earth war strategy.

Israel’s government was terrible far before Bibi or Likud were in power, as a simple understanding of Israeli history would tell you.

And their best pm ever was from Likud. Begin got peace with Egypt and liberalized their economy as well after decades of socialist policies.

[TheReckoning]

A big tragedy in all of this is that Bibi has been synonymous with Israel for the majority of many of our lives. It's why many people assume Israel will always act like it has under his disastrous leadership - untrue - and why people feel compelled to defend things like his failed, intractable, scorched-earth war strategy.

Israel’s government was terrible far before Bibi or Likud were in power, as a simple understanding of Israeli history would tell you.

Is your argument that the situation hasn't changed for the worse regarding settlements in the West Bank since Netanyahu came to power? I suppose Israel's government is always going to seem terrible to people who find the country illegitimate, if that describes your beliefs.

The Israeli government, since 1967, has shown little commitment to a long term solution, and seems to be banking on Western support to do whatever it wants in the mean time.

[Ancestral Republican]

A big tragedy in all of this is that Bibi has been synonymous with Israel for the majority of many of our lives. It's why many people assume Israel will always act like it has under his disastrous leadership - untrue - and why people feel compelled to defend things like his failed, intractable, scorched-earth war strategy.

Israel’s government was terrible far before Bibi or Likud were in power, as a simple understanding of Israeli history would tell you.

And their best pm ever was from Likud. Begin got peace with Egypt and liberalized their economy as well after decades of socialist policies.

Stop embarrassing yourself.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

[Ancestral Republican]

A big tragedy in all of this is that Bibi has been synonymous with Israel for the majority of many of our lives. It's why many people assume Israel will always act like it has under his disastrous leadership - untrue - and why people feel compelled to defend things like his failed, intractable, scorched-earth war strategy.

Israel’s government was terrible far before Bibi or Likud were in power, as a simple understanding of Israeli history would tell you.

Your understanding of history is frankly not very robust, Israel-related or otherwise.

[OSR stands with Israel]

A big tragedy in all of this is that Bibi has been synonymous with Israel for the majority of many of our lives. It's why many people assume Israel will always act like it has under his disastrous leadership - untrue - and why people feel compelled to defend things like his failed, intractable, scorched-earth war strategy.

Israel’s government was terrible far before Bibi or Likud were in power, as a simple understanding of Israeli history would tell you.

And their best pm ever was from Likud. Begin got peace with Egypt and liberalized their economy as well after decades of socialist policies.

Stop embarrassing yourself.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

The greatest of leaders can have moral misgivings too . Just look at our greatest president list . They should not be demonized based on that though

[SnowLabrador]

DEMOCRATS: GET YOUR S**T TOGETHER!!!!!

[Ancestral Republican]

A big tragedy in all of this is that Bibi has been synonymous with Israel for the majority of many of our lives. It's why many people assume Israel will always act like it has under his disastrous leadership - untrue - and why people feel compelled to defend things like his failed, intractable, scorched-earth war strategy.

Israel’s government was terrible far before Bibi or Likud were in power, as a simple understanding of Israeli history would tell you.

And their best pm ever was from Likud. Begin got peace with Egypt and liberalized their economy as well after decades of socialist policies.

Stop embarrassing yourself.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

The greatest of leaders can have moral misgivings too . Just look at our greatest president list . They should not be demonized based on that though

Calling a monster the "best pm ever" because you think he fits in your Americabrained conservative box shows you have next to zero knowledge of Israeli history.
Stay in the kiddie pool please.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

The World Wars are precisely why we have international institutions, including legal ones. The fact that international law is more honored in the breach isn’t an argument against its necessity.

For better or worse, the ICC is a joke and at best a decidedly mediocre institution that no one took seriously until it engaged in anti-Israel virtue signaling.  Whatever one thinks of the merits of the idea behind the organization, this much is true.

I'm sure the Congolese, Ugandan, Sudanese, Malian, and Central African military and political figures who are or very recently were in custody due to the ICC would disagree. Dislike it all you want, but the ICC is one of the few organizations that has ever actually done something about enforcing justice for perpetrators crimes against humanity. I'd think its the only one that has done so across multiple conflicts. Its statements on this (and other conflicts, like its warrant against Putin) are newsworthy and widely reported because its record gives it a moral authority regarding war crimes that both Israel and Hamas lack. If it really was a "decidedly mediocre institution that no one took seriously" its statements would have been ignored like the vast majority of the statements made about this conflicts by no-name organizations have been.

I mean, they will be ignored in every truly meaningful sense as far as the conflict goes and rightly so.  It has no jurisdiction and is simply embarrassing itself.  And that’s assuming the warrants are even issued.

[brucejoel99]

The World Wars are precisely why we have international institutions, including legal ones. The fact that international law is more honored in the breach isn’t an argument against its necessity.

For better or worse, the ICC is a joke and at best a decidedly mediocre institution that no one took seriously until it engaged in anti-Israel virtue signaling.  Whatever one thinks of the merits of the idea behind the organization, this much is true.

I'm sure the Congolese, Ugandan, Sudanese, Malian, and Central African military and political figures who are or very recently were in custody due to the ICC would disagree. Dislike it all you want, but the ICC is one of the few organizations that has ever actually done something about enforcing justice for perpetrators crimes against humanity. I'd think its the only one that has done so across multiple conflicts. Its statements on this (and other conflicts, like its warrant against Putin) are newsworthy and widely reported because its record gives it a moral authority regarding war crimes that both Israel and Hamas lack. If it really was a "decidedly mediocre institution that no one took seriously" its statements would have been ignored like the vast majority of the statements made about this conflicts by no-name organizations have been.

I mean, they will be ignored in every truly meaningful sense as far as the conflict goes and rightly so.  It has no jurisdiction and is simply embarrassing itself.  And that’s assuming the warrants are even issued.

The Genocide Convention to which Israel is a signatory was created because of the Holocaust, so the pro-Israel movement attempting to defend its conduct against such accusations under the Rome Statute by incorrectly claiming false jurisdiction may just be the peak of "embarrassing" hypocrisy. Palestine has been UN-recognized since 2012 & a state-level signatory to the Rome Statute since the P.A. signed it in 2015, & there's no "ICC jurisdiction applies only to UN members" provision of the Rome Statute, granted that unlike the ICJ, the ICC isn't even a UN organ! And either the ICC can investigate alleged crimes committed in the territory of member-states even when the act of directing those alleged crimes to be committed took place in the physical territory of a non-signatory to the Rome Statute, or else Putin's arrest warrant is just as deficient as the pending application for Bibi & Gallant. Just because terrorists like Yehya Sinwar, Mohammed Deif & Ismail Haniyeh routinely ignore international law & the rules of war doesn't entitle a democratic nation-state like Israel to also get to do so.

And if you don't believe me, then look no further than Bibi himself finally conceding that he has risked putting Israel on the path to becoming a pariah state after slowly but surely losing a lot of the support that the country righteously had on 10/7 because he allowed the operation to be too militarily incompetent & hell-bent on collectively punishing Gaza with genocide:

Whether or not the arrest warrants materialize, they have already had an effect. It is impossible to detach them from the postponement of any move to start the evacuation of Palestinian civilians as a prelude to the Rafah operation, and the sudden willingness of Netanyahu to accept an Egyptian proposal for a hostage agreement that will include the restoration of freedom of movement in Gaza and, more than anything else, the increasingly open actions by Israel to restore supply lines into Gaza after long months of obstruction.

Israeli officials admit that these are now directly connected to the government's urgent efforts to fend off arrest warrants.

It's part of a wider trend of belated realization that the costs of this war on the international front could become intolerable, whether for Israel as a country or for certain Israeli individuals. And while many, perhaps even a majority, of Israelis don't particularly care if Netanyahu (and Mrs. Netanyahu) might have to give up his penchant for state-funded travel overseas, this isn't just about him.

That doesn't exactly sound like the Israeli political & security establishment is currently "ignor[ing the ICC] in every truly meaningful sense as far as the conflict goes and rightly so."

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The World Wars are precisely why we have international institutions, including legal ones. The fact that international law is more honored in the breach isn’t an argument against its necessity.

For better or worse, the ICC is a joke and at best a decidedly mediocre institution that no one took seriously until it engaged in anti-Israel virtue signaling.  Whatever one thinks of the merits of the idea behind the organization, this much is true.

I'm sure the Congolese, Ugandan, Sudanese, Malian, and Central African military and political figures who are or very recently were in custody due to the ICC would disagree. Dislike it all you want, but the ICC is one of the few organizations that has ever actually done something about enforcing justice for perpetrators crimes against humanity. I'd think its the only one that has done so across multiple conflicts. Its statements on this (and other conflicts, like its warrant against Putin) are newsworthy and widely reported because its record gives it a moral authority regarding war crimes that both Israel and Hamas lack. If it really was a "decidedly mediocre institution that no one took seriously" its statements would have been ignored like the vast majority of the statements made about this conflicts by no-name organizations have been.

I mean, they will be ignored in every truly meaningful sense as far as the conflict goes and rightly so.  It has no jurisdiction and is simply embarrassing itself.  And that’s assuming the warrants are even issued.

I mean you still didn't provide an answer of how to handle such war criminals. The ones I provided examples of were technically not handled by the ICC but specific tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda, but the ICC was created to avoid having to convene such tribunals for every conflict. It definitely wouldn't be done now and indicting Russians over Ukraine, or the Hamas leaders.

[Meclazine for Israel]

The greatest of leaders can have moral misgivings too . Just look at our greatest president.....

Spot on.

Make It Great Again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbOUSn_pN8o

[Brittain33]

A big tragedy in all of this is that Bibi has been synonymous with Israel for the majority of many of our lives. It's why many people assume Israel will always act like it has under his disastrous leadership - untrue - and why people feel compelled to defend things like his failed, intractable, scorched-earth war strategy.

Israel’s government was terrible far before Bibi or Likud were in power, as a simple understanding of Israeli history would tell you.

Is your argument that the situation hasn't changed for the worse regarding settlements in the West Bank since Netanyahu came to power? I suppose Israel's government is always going to seem terrible to people who find the country illegitimate, if that describes your beliefs.

The Israeli government, since 1967, has shown little commitment to a long term solution, and seems to be banking on Western support to do whatever it wants in the mean time.

Have you heard of Yitzhak Rabin, what he achieved and why he was assassinated? If not, I agree that one’s understanding of Israeli history can be described as “simple.”