Sandy Berger Probed Over Terror Memos (stuffed in jacket, pants, SOCKS!)

[MarkDel]

that doesn't sound pretty

Agcat,

It's not. Both parties have essentially agreed to "table some issues" in an attempt to prevent themselves from looking bad. Each party is being blackmailed by the other over materials that make their respective side look bad...and the American people will never find out the truth...and our nation will be less safe than it should be. And the part that really pisses me off is that I have often said that OUR PARTY is above this sort of thing, but now it appears we are merely just "less despicable" than the Democrats.

[agcatter]

Mark,
The problem with our being "above it" is that Dem tactics have been killing us.  We can be above it and lose or get down in the gutter and possibly survive.  Lousy choice but that is kind of the reality I'm afraid.

How do we know that if we hold back Kerry and Co. won't drop their dirt on us in late October?  Remember the Bush DWI five days before the election?

[MarkDel]

Mark,
The problem with our being "above it" is that Dem tactics have been killing us.  We can be above it and lose or get down in the gutter and possibly survive.  Lousy choice but that is kind of the reality I'm afraid.

How do we know that if we hold back Kerry and Co. won't drop their dirt on us in late October?  Remember the Bush DWI five days before the election?

Agcat,

I agree with you about having to get vicious...remember, my idol when I worked on Capitol Hill was Lee Atwater, but we cannot play politics with national security, and this is what this involves.

As for Kerry springing an "October surprise" that won't happen...believe me, their side is far, far more vulnerable than ours if this information came out. But the truth is, as ludicrous as this sounds, Kerry actually may not know the whole story, the Democratic strings are being pulled by a different crowd where this 9/11/Berger issue is concerned. Kerry was not in the loop until the last week or so...I know that sounds insane, but it's the truth.

[Nation]

A secure room would have only a secure telephone line.  Also, bringing in a cell phone would be strictly forbidden.  So there are a few questions:
1. Were these calls on a secure line, or on a cell phone (several rules were apparently bent/broken for Mr. Berger, so he might have had a cell)?
2. If it was a secure line, was it capable of calls to non-secure phones? (some are, some aren't)
3. Were the conversations recorded?
4. Who was he calling?

The main question is: what were in those documents.  I wished we could get that one answered.

NHPolitico,

What was in those documents was stuff that might actually make a "grounded" guy like me start to believe in conspiracy theories...WOW!!!

But the real truth will NEVER be made public for reasons of national STABILITY.

Wow -- that's pretty amazing, actually. Makes me wonder even more though, hah.

[agcatter]

No, it doesn't sound insane at all.  Let me guess - the Clinton crowd at work.  Berger goes in to the National Archives to, shall we say, clean up or do away with a certain set of Richard Clark memos critical of the way the Clinton administration was handling the terrorism issue......namely the post attempted millenium unsuccessful bombing which they had hailed as proof of the Clinton administration's vigilance against the terror threat.  Only, this is proof that Clark was actually critical of that policy..

Hmmm.  President Kerry.  The sound of that makes me want to drop everything we have on them... This is war.

[MarkDel]

No, it doesn't sound insane at all.  Let me guess - the Clinton crowd at work.  Berger goes in to the National Archives to, shall we say, clean up or do away with a certain set of Richard Clark memos critical of the way the Clinton administration was handling the terrorism issue......namely the post attempted millenium unsuccessful bombing which they had hailed as proof of the Clinton administration's vigilance against the terror threat.  Only, this is proof that Clark was actually critical of that policy..

Hmmm.  President Kerry.  The sound of that makes me want to drop everything we have on them... This is war.

Agcat,

That's close, but it's much, much worse than that.

[agcatter]

Holy crap.  The Clinton crowd...not a surprise at all.

Wonder if this mutual blackmail thing is also the reason the 9-11 came out so strangely benign toward each side?

[MarkDel]

Holy crap.  The Clinton crowd...not a surprise at all.

Wonder if this mutual blackmail thing is also the reason the 9-11 came out so strangely benign toward each side?

AGCAT,

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[agcatter]

This suits Clinton fine in two respects.  He doesn't get whacked by the commission and in turn Bush doesn't get whacked either.

The latter is good because if Bush doesn't get hurt, Kerry doesn't get an advantage in the election and maybe Bush wins.  That's good for Hillary in 2008.

Am I overdoing it?

[MarkDel]

Agcat,

No, you are actually understating it, but you are very much on the right trail...and where it leads in terms of 9/11 is what I cannot tell you, but it's right out of the conspiracy theory school. What I will say is that if everything came out, George Bush would look AWFUL, the entire Democratic Party would look BEYOND AWFUL and the American people would lose even more respect for their own leaders.

[agcatter]

And you don't think the donkeys would drop their stuff like the Monday night before the election knowing the Bushies wouldn't have time to unload before election day  That's what is scaring the hell out of me.  What's to keep Dems from pulling that off?  The'd have their power and there would be NOTHING our side could do about it.

[MarkDel]

And you don't think the donkeys would drop their stuff like the Monday night before the election knowing the Bushies wouldn't have time to unload before election day  That's what is scaring the hell out of me.  What's to keep Dems from pulling that off?  The'd have their power and there would be NOTHING our side could do about it.

Agcat,

No, it won't happen. They would suffer MUCH MORE long term damage if their information came out. The negative info about Bush might or might not cost him the election, but the negative stuff about Clinton could make Watergate look trivial if it ever came out. That's why I'm so god damn mad about this...the Republicans are being too timid, they should just take the bullet in the kneecap to drive a stake through the Democrats' heart on this one. It really is that huge...by the way, you'll never guess who actually leaked the Sandy Berger story this week...it wasn't the Republicans and it did not come from the DNC either.

[The Duke]

Dammit, you can't just tease us like this!  Now I have to know what's going on.

[12th Doctor]

Mark, was it Clinton?  Kerry?  Edwards?  Nader?

[MarkDel]

Dammit, you can't just tease us like this!  Now I have to know what's going on.

John,

You're a bright guy. Think about the critical events of the 1990's and you'll find part of the answer.

[12th Doctor]

Dammit, you can't just tease us like this!  Now I have to know what's going on.

John,

You're a bright guy. Think about the critical events of the 1990's and you'll find part of the answer.

A lot happened during the 90's Mark.  Can you give us a tree to sniff around?

[MarkDel]

Mark, was it Clinton?  Kerry?  Edwards?  Nader?

Supersoulty,

It was Kerry. The poor dumb bastard is so out of the loop even in his own party that he did not know what has been going on for the last eight months in terms of Berger and the 9/11 findings. When he found out, he went freaking nuts because he's afraid the Republicans were going to spring "Berger" on him right before the Election, so he and his advisors came up with this fairly clever scheme to leak the story themselves, and blame it on Republicans trying to deflect attention away from the 9/11 report. Of course, he still doesn't know the whole truth, because if he did, he would know it was completely unnecessary to throw Berger to the wolves...Ashcroft was protecting Berger and will continue to do so unless the media calls loudly for charges against Berger.

[agcatter]

Part of the Clinton crowd I'm sure - as to which one, I'd guess maybe Bruce Lindsey.

Sounds like Kerry has two problems in this campaign - Bush and getting knifed in the back by Willie.

Ok, another question.  If your Dem connection knows this stuff about Bush it's bound to get out to the media.  You KNOW if the NY Times gets it they will be a really loose cannon and will no doubt run with it to sink Bush.    That's what their paper has been completely about for the last three yrs.  Clinton cannot control the Kennedy wing partisans can he?  Won't they spread it.  They don't care about Bill more than they want power.

[MarkDel]

Dammit, you can't just tease us like this!  Now I have to know what's going on.

John,

You're a bright guy. Think about the critical events of the 1990's and you'll find part of the answer.

A lot happened during the 90's Mark.  Can you give us a tree to sniff around?

I've already said WAYYYYY more than I should have...sorry.

[The Duke]

Part of the Clinton crowd I'm sure - as to which one, I'd guess maybe Bruce Lindsey.

Sounds like Kerry has two problems in this campaign - Bush and getting knifed in the back by Willie.

Ok, another question.  If your Dem connection knows this stuff about Bush it's bound to get out to the media.  You KNOW if the NY Times gets it they will be a really loose cannon and will no doubt run with it to sink Bush.    That's what their paper has been completely about for the last three yrs.  Clinton cannot control the Kennedy wing partisans can he?  Won't they spread it.  They don't care about Bill more than they want power.

But if they talk ot Mark's contact, they'll know what Mark knows: Leaking the story hurts Dems more than Reps.

[MarkDel]

Part of the Clinton crowd I'm sure - as to which one, I'd guess maybe Bruce Lindsey.

Sounds like Kerry has two problems in this campaign - Bush and getting knifed in the back by Willie.

Ok, another question.  If your Dem connection knows this stuff about Bush it's bound to get out to the media.  You KNOW if the NY Times gets it they will be a really loose cannon and will no doubt run with it to sink Bush.    That's what their paper has been completely about for the last three yrs.  Clinton cannot control the Kennedy wing partisans can he?  Won't they spread it.  They don't care about Bill more than they want power.

Agcat,

Personally, I can't believe that something this big can be hidden from the media and the public, but my "contact" tells me it has been, and will be, because both sides will make certain it stays secret. The only reason he knows is because he has a very close friend (as in one that he sleeps with!) high up in the DNC...and he found out from her...and he was supposed to tell no one, but he and I go WAYYYY back and I saved his ASS on something back in 1989, so he tells me everything...eventually.

[agcatter]

Ashcroft protects Berger?  Part of the Bush- Clinton alliance of convenience?

[12th Doctor]

Mark, was it Clinton?  Kerry?  Edwards?  Nader?

Supersoulty,

It was Kerry. The poor dumb bastard is so out of the loop even in his own party that he did not know what has been going on for the last eight months in terms of Berger and the 9/11 findings. When he found out, he went freaking nuts because he's afraid the Republicans were going to spring "Berger" on him right before the Election, so he and his advisors came up with this fairly clever scheme to leak the story themselves, and blame it on Republicans trying to deflect attention away from the 9/11 report. Of course, he still doesn't know the whole truth, because if he did, he would know it was completely unnecessary to throw Berger to the wolves...Ashcroft was protecting Berger and will continue to do so unless the media calls loudly for charges against Berger.

I had suspected that the Dems were responsible for the outing of Berger, because the Republicans had nothing to gain.  They new the report wasn't going to rip the Prez, so why divert attention.  At the same time, the Dems would also know that the report was not going to be negative for Bush and thus, outed Berger to divert attention.  I figured that part out on my own.  I had no idea it went this deep though.

[MarkDel]

Part of the Clinton crowd I'm sure - as to which one, I'd guess maybe Bruce Lindsey.

Sounds like Kerry has two problems in this campaign - Bush and getting knifed in the back by Willie.

Ok, another question.  If your Dem connection knows this stuff about Bush it's bound to get out to the media.  You KNOW if the NY Times gets it they will be a really loose cannon and will no doubt run with it to sink Bush.    That's what their paper has been completely about for the last three yrs.  Clinton cannot control the Kennedy wing partisans can he?  Won't they spread it.  They don't care about Bill more than they want power.

But if they talk ot Mark's contact, they'll know what Mark knows: Leaking the story hurts Dems more than Reps.

Yes, and anyone who went public with the story would immediately be smeared and slandered as a lunatic and conspiracy theorist, etc, etc...if it was me, the RNC would start planting media stories about how I was a disgruntled ex-employee (even though I quit) with an axe to grind because I thought I was going to be Congressman and my political career was a failure, etc, etc...

[MarkDel]

Ashcroft protects Berger?  Part of the Bush- Clinton alliance of convenience?

Not so much an alliance..think of the way the US and the Soviet Union dealt with each other before Reagan came along...mutual fear that both would be utterly destroyed if they didn't resist the urge to hurt each other.