What happened to the salience of feminism?

[darklordoftech]

Feminism was very salient throughout the 2010s. What happened to that?

[T'Chenka]

Some of the semi-controversial (not extremist) aspects of feminism were basically accepted by mainstream culture and became more or less "common sense" instead of "feminist ideology". So when it comes to those specific things, the fight kind of died, as the battle was more or less won. People who are still against that stuff are mostly just considered sexist now.

[Beet]

It lost. The social justice crowd decided that race was more important than gender. Gamergate happened. Then Trump happened. There was an attempt to make rape the biggest feminist issue, (perhaps because it's the most emotional?) and there came to be a collective realization that if a guy rapes a girl in her bedroom and they both know each other, no one can prove anything and he can basically get away with it. Then RBG died and Roe was overturned, leaving women with fewer rights than 50 years ago. For the first time since perhaps the Gilded Age, and the first time ever for women, a major civil rights advance was rolled back. The left-wing narrative of progress was shattered. Then, left wing activism in general went into abeyance after 2020. Public opinion going 100-to-1 for Johnny Depp in his defamation trial proved that #MeToo was dead. That is too many blows for any one movement to absorb. A lot of feminists took the opportunity of Elon Musk's takeover of Twitter, and subsequent lifting of censorship that was protecting them, to basically fade away.

If it comes back, my guess it would come back in a more Old Left form. More prudish about sex, still taking a back seat to race. One thing that is coming to be understood is that feminism is not compatible with the sexual marketplace, where women are valued for their beauty and men are valued for things that they can do. That will always create incentives for women to underachieve. An entire generation was misled by Madonna looking like she was in control of her sexuality and that was the path to success. Monogamy is best for gender equality. Of course, the left will eventually realize that class, and perhaps nationality, is more important than race.

Overall, I think a lot of people on the left will conclude the late 20th century post-structuralist school of nihilism, represented by the Frankfurt School, was counter-productive and reactionary. The New Left has been the dominant force on the left now for 70 years, and 50 of those years have been clear decline and Right-wing ascendancy. Whereas the previous 200 years before that, the left was continually on the rise. So the Frankfurt School and post-structuralism in general was the worst thing to happen to the left.

[Dan the Roman]

Feminism split between a representational wing and an ideological one.

The representational wing was determined to maximize female representation everywhere whether through quotas or other mandates.

The ideological wing wished to transform societal structures to make them less sexist.

The representational wing's focus on quotas left it very vulnerable to TERFism and a general rightward shift, because quotas presume a finite supply of positions, and therefore require rigidly safeguarding who is entitled to them. Hence for this wing, female sports exist so that women can win, so defining who is a women is existential. In turn, because they assume everyone else views the world in the same zero-sum terms, they assume the motive for anyone else entering must be that, and not say affirmation or community.

The ideological wing fell into the same intersectionality black hole the rest of the activist left has over the past five years. It probably talks more about Gaza than abortion in Georgia.

In short, most feminists are not really talking about anything people in 2011 would really consider feminist issues.  

[jojoju1998]

Feminism split between a representational wing and an ideological one.

The representational wing was determine to maximize female representation everywhere whether through quotas or other mandates.

The ideological wing wished to transform societal structures to make them less sexist.

The representational wing's focus on quotas left it very vulnerable to TERFism and a general rightward shift, because quotas presume a finite supply of positions, and therefore require rigidly safeguarding who is entitled to them. Hence for this wing, female sports exist so that women can win, so defining who is a women is existential. In turn, because they assume everyone else views the world in the same zero-sum terms, they assume the motive for anyone else entering must be that, and not say affirmation or community.

The ideological wing fell into the same intersectionality black hole the rest of the activist left has over the past five years. It probably talks more about Gaza than abortion in Georgia.

In short, most feminists are not really talking about anything people in 2011 would really consider feminist issues.  

I keep on repeating South Korea but… man… their gender wars scare me.

[Crumpets]

Like a lot of big historical movements, it diversified to the point that the single term "feminist" now has little meaning beyond "someone who calls themselves a feminist." But it's not like some of the hallmark causes of feminism have gone away. The US is still slowly moving towards equalizing political representation for women, corporate power for women, growing the role of and respect for women in the military, and plenty of other spaces. And maybe one day we'll get around to getting guaranteed paid maternity leave, a Congress that's half women, and a woman as president.

[Hollywood]

I think we're all Feminists. I think we're talking about Feminazis. These are the loud ignorant extremist women that claim to be speak on behalf of feminists and women, but constantly advocate for BS policies hinged on nonsensical assertions and bogus studies, as well as hatred for male counterarguments, or insensitivity and rage when confronted with problems facing men.  For example, they are currently embarrassing themselves on television by arguing that WNBA and NBA players should be paid the same even though male basketball entertainers generate more revenue due to the fact that their performance is ridiculously better than female players.  Everyone can see it has nothing to do with sex.  The men are paid an amount commensurate with their performance, and the women have been overpaid from funds by the male league due to their failure to draw an audience.  They aren't arguing for right.  They want privileges. 

Additionally, they want all these men's rights and perspective podcasters from freely expressing their opinions, because there are some extreme pro-male advocates that insult women the same way they bash men.  They think hate speech should only be applied to men.  Like I said, they're fascist.

[Progressive Pessimist]

It's still here, if anything It's become more singularly focused on reproductive rights, as should be expected when an entire demographic, encompassing 50% of the population, loses a major ability to be autonomous in one-third of the country.

[David Hume]

Some of the semi-controversial (not extremist) aspects of feminism were basically accepted by mainstream culture and became more or less "common sense" instead of "feminist ideology". So when it comes to those specific things, the fight kind of died, as the battle was more or less won. People who are still against that stuff are mostly just considered sexist now.

For example?

[T'Chenka]

Some of the semi-controversial (not extremist) aspects of feminism were basically accepted by mainstream culture and became more or less "common sense" instead of "feminist ideology". So when it comes to those specific things, the fight kind of died, as the battle was more or less won. People who are still against that stuff are mostly just considered sexist now.

For example?

- people that talk about consent aren't extremists

- some terminology that was called sexist has been successfully "cancelled" (reduced) such as broads, tuts, the word bitches meaning women (unironic, the ironic use has not reduced), calling women "sluts" is still definitely around but it's not as commonplace, etc etc

- feminism as a concept in general seems to be more accepted now than it was 5, 6, 7 years ago. people do not automatically assume a "feminist" is an extremist anymore like they used to. though th be fair, that time period where "feminist" was negatively associated might have been more of a blip, and things might have been the way they are now with that term 10 to 15 years ago. could just be my perception which is obviously biased

- the ideas of "women shouldn't be CEOs" and "women can't do everything men can do" were not popular 5, 10, 15 years ago, but they're even less popular now than they ever were in USA / North America. more old sexist people have died off, and more babies have been born into a world with less sexism. Kids grow up in that environment to create the teens and adults in society and their attitudes reflect that.

[Ferguson97]

I reject your premise. If anything it has gotten more influential. If it’s talked about less, it’s because they’ve “won”.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned (either the perception of or the reality of) #MeToo overreach and resulting backlash, which was BLM backlash two or three years before BLM backlash was BLM backlash. Left-wing sociocultural movements really need to start accounting for this pattern in their strategy.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned (either the perception of or the reality of) #MeToo overreach and resulting backlash, which was BLM backlash two or three years before BLM backlash was BLM backlash. Left-wing sociocultural movements really need to start accounting for this pattern in their strategy.

It's just harder to have any form of message discipline in the social media era. We're watching this in real time with the pro-Palestine left. Social media is designed to elevate increasingly radical takes. Some of these get adopted and absorbed into the mainstream of the movement, but those that don't still get outsized attention in a way that paints the entire movement negatively. I'm not sure what the solution is, although getting teenagers off social media would be a good first step.

[ingemann]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned (either the perception of or the reality of) #MeToo overreach and resulting backlash, which was BLM backlash two or three years before BLM backlash was BLM backlash. Left-wing sociocultural movements really need to start accounting for this pattern in their strategy.

I fail to see how #MeToo can be seen as anything other than a major success.

[Mr. Smith]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned (either the perception of or the reality of) #MeToo overreach and resulting backlash, which was BLM backlash two or three years before BLM backlash was BLM backlash. Left-wing sociocultural movements really need to start accounting for this pattern in their strategy.

They do, usually by waiting to seize on any backlash to the backlash. They are rather passive though.

[Devout Centrist]

I’d argue feminism, however you want to define it, is a lot more salient to women today than it was just a few years ago. The prospects for mass movement feminism influencing political debate and legislation are growing stronger.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned (either the perception of or the reality of) #MeToo overreach and resulting backlash, which was BLM backlash two or three years before BLM backlash was BLM backlash. Left-wing sociocultural movements really need to start accounting for this pattern in their strategy.

I fail to see how #MeToo can be seen as anything other than a major success.

I think it was; it did shift the needle quite a bit (which BLM did too tbh, although this fact is currently not talked about much). But there was a clear point around the beginning of calendar year 2019 where it started getting perceived much more skeptically rather than moving from strength to strength.

[afleitch]

Feminism, like a lot of political movements, continues to be 'gatekeeped' by older generations, a similarly aged commentariat and their concerns. It struggles to be centred around the experiences of younger women or intersectionality.

Since about 2019, the typical platformed feminist is (stereotypically) a 60 something, second wave, white TERF. In fairness this is by design. More so in the UK, but increasingly in the US too when that wasn't the case only a few years ago.

Third-wave feminism, which isn't new, remains in a state of arrested development under the strict banner of 'feminism', so activists best progress this movement intersectionality through green, queer, housing movements etc.

[Shaula🏳️‍⚧️]

It was mostly discredited in the mid-2010s because of the crazy Buzzfeed people. I've definitely noticed it's less common for people to call themselves feminists than it used to be.

[Ferguson97]

It was mostly discredited in the mid-2010s because of the crazy Buzzfeed people. I've definitely noticed it's less common for people to call themselves feminists than it used to be.

You were 10 years old in 2016.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

I think T'Chenka is pretty much onto the biggest reason, which is that the average man these days would've been a fairly radical feminist even just a few decades back.

Of course this has engendered reaction from some types of men, but overall society has progressed to places unimaginable a century ago when women just begun to vote, and while I have my days... I'm fairly optimistic that the arc of the moral universe will sort itself out, regardless of how many people 'identify' as feminists at any one time.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Nothing quite like a bunch of men having a good old chat about what went wrong with feminism is there, chaps?

[heatcharger]

Nothing quite like a bunch of men having a good old chat about what went wrong with feminism is there, chaps?

Nothing like a pretentious Al post to remind you what topics you are and aren’t allowed to talk about.

[heatcharger]

I disagree with parts of Beet’s post but overall he gave a decent synopsis of the feminist movement over the past 10 years.

An underrated aspect of 2020 is how Hollywood lost credibility in terms of leading social movements. Whether it was #MeToo, BLM or the general anti-Trump fervor the public no longer looks to Hollywood for moral leadership.

Pay attention to how few celebrities endorse for president this year.

[soundchaser]

I disagree with parts of Beet’s post but overall he gave a decent synopsis of the feminist movement over the past 10 years.

An underrated aspect of 2020 is how Hollywood lost credibility in terms of leading social movements. Whether it was #MeToo, BLM or the general anti-Trump fervor the public no longer looks to Hollywood for moral leadership.

Pay attention to how few celebrities endorse for president this year.

If Hollywood had any credibility in leading social movements, Trump wouldn't have been elected in the first place. Hollywood's been variably on the social back foot since the Fatty Arbuckle scandal.