Do you consider card counting to be a form of cheating?

[The Arizonan]

Do you consider it to be cheating?

Personally, I don’t consider it cheating as long as you do it entirely in your head.

[SWE]

Games have rules, if you break those rules to your advantage, even if the rules are arbitrary, that's cheating. If you're playing a game where card counting is against the rules, that's cheating. If you agreed to play a game that's supposed to be up to chance, you should respect that

[Rand]

Just don’t tell your wife.

[Ferguson97]

Yes, because it's against the rules. Might be a dumb rule, but breaking the rules to win the game is, by definition, cheating.

[The Arizonan]

Yes, because it's against the rules. Might be a dumb rule, but breaking the rules to win the game is, by definition, cheating.

Has anyone seen a sign or anything inside a casino that says that card counting is against the rules? There is a lot of gray area as far as I’m concerned.

[vitoNova]

I watched a Youtube video on this like 10 years ago--just out of pure curiosity because I'm not into gambling and never even been to Vegas--but isn't "card-counting" all in a person's mind?

If it is, it is absolutely not cheating.

[America Needs a 13-6 Progressive SCOTUS]

No, and Casinos that take measures against it are the ones that are cheating.

[dead0man]

it doesn't matter, the casino is private property, if they think you have an unfair advantage (whatever it may be), they can ask you to leave and you have to leave.  You have no constitutional right to force others to provide gambling for you.

[dead0man]

and, if memory serves, the casinos want people to think card counting is a thing*, it gets dumb, average and kind of smart people to convince themselves they can "beat the man" because they have a "system" and then dump thousands of dollars finding out they aren't as smart as they thought they were (or they just need a better "system").



*card counting is real, technically, but it's hard, boring and is certainly not a get rich quick scheme

[DaleCooper]

and, if memory serves, the casinos want people to think card counting is a thing*, it gets dumb, average and kind of smart people to convince themselves they can "beat the man" because they have a "system" and then dump thousands of dollars finding out they aren't as smart as they thought they were (or they just need a better "system").



*card counting is real, technically, but it's hard, boring and is certainly not a get rich quick scheme

Most card counters are easy to spot because they win too much, so they can get kicked out and blacklisted quickly. Most gamblers are not smart enough to card count, so they'll read about it online and then go to the casino and gamble away three payday loans worth of their income. It's a benefit for casinos if card counting gets romanticized or talked up.

And you're right. It is really hard. It takes a lot of practice and extremely fast thinking. There's a reason the card counters we hear about are always Harvard or MIT nerds.

[dead0man]

and, if memory serves, the casinos want people to think card counting is a thing*, it gets dumb, average and kind of smart people to convince themselves they can "beat the man" because they have a "system" and then dump thousands of dollars finding out they aren't as smart as they thought they were (or they just need a better "system").



*card counting is real, technically, but it's hard, boring and is certainly not a get rich quick scheme

Most card counters are easy to spot because they win too much, so they can get kicked out and blacklisted quickly. Most gamblers are not smart enough to card count, so they'll read about it online and then go to the casino and gamble away three payday loans worth of their income. It's a benefit for casinos if card counting gets romanticized or talked up.

And you're right. It is really hard. It takes a lot of practice and extremely fast thinking. There's a reason the card counters we hear about are always Harvard or MIT nerds.

indeed, and people that smart can make more money faster elsewhere, in easier and more entertaining ways.

[lfromnj]

and, if memory serves, the casinos want people to think card counting is a thing*, it gets dumb, average and kind of smart people to convince themselves they can "beat the man" because they have a "system" and then dump thousands of dollars finding out they aren't as smart as they thought they were (or they just need a better "system").



*card counting is real, technically, but it's hard, boring and is certainly not a get rich quick scheme

Most card counters are easy to spot because they win too much, so they can get kicked out and blacklisted quickly. Most gamblers are not smart enough to card count, so they'll read about it online and then go to the casino and gamble away three payday loans worth of their income. It's a benefit for casinos if card counting gets romanticized or talked up.

And you're right. It is really hard. It takes a lot of practice and extremely fast thinking. There's a reason the card counters we hear about are always Harvard or MIT nerds.

They actually don't win that much.  IIRC the base house edge of Blackjack is like 1% meaning for every 100 dollars gambled the player wins 99.. A card counter probably gets a 1% edge instead of the house .An edge is an edge of course but the main way card counters are caught is generally when you start eratically increasing or decreasing your bets on different hands. If it was just a simple reversal of the house edge the casino itself would never notice except for repeat players.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

and, if memory serves, the casinos want people to think card counting is a thing*, it gets dumb, average and kind of smart people to convince themselves they can "beat the man" because they have a "system" and then dump thousands of dollars finding out they aren't as smart as they thought they were (or they just need a better "system").



*card counting is real, technically, but it's hard, boring and is certainly not a get rich quick scheme

Most card counters are easy to spot because they win too much, so they can get kicked out and blacklisted quickly. Most gamblers are not smart enough to card count, so they'll read about it online and then go to the casino and gamble away three payday loans worth of their income. It's a benefit for casinos if card counting gets romanticized or talked up.

And you're right. It is really hard. It takes a lot of practice and extremely fast thinking. There's a reason the card counters we hear about are always Harvard or MIT nerds.

They actually don't win that much.  IIRC the base house edge of Blackjack is like 1% meaning for every 100 dollars gambled the player wins 99.. A card counter probably gets a 1% edge instead of the house .An edge is an edge of course but the main way card counters are caught is generally when you start eratically increasing or decreasing your bets on different hands. If it was just a simple reversal of the house edge the casino itself would never notice except for repeat players.

Uh, I believe it's a statistical fact that the dealer will win a Blackjack hand 58% of the time. So that would imply that the player would not just lose a buck for every $100 bet.

[America Needs a 13-6 Progressive SCOTUS]

Regardless of whether card counting is cheating, can we all agree that its justified since the casino operators deserve to lose money?

[DaleCooper]

and, if memory serves, the casinos want people to think card counting is a thing*, it gets dumb, average and kind of smart people to convince themselves they can "beat the man" because they have a "system" and then dump thousands of dollars finding out they aren't as smart as they thought they were (or they just need a better "system").



*card counting is real, technically, but it's hard, boring and is certainly not a get rich quick scheme

Most card counters are easy to spot because they win too much, so they can get kicked out and blacklisted quickly. Most gamblers are not smart enough to card count, so they'll read about it online and then go to the casino and gamble away three payday loans worth of their income. It's a benefit for casinos if card counting gets romanticized or talked up.

And you're right. It is really hard. It takes a lot of practice and extremely fast thinking. There's a reason the card counters we hear about are always Harvard or MIT nerds.

They actually don't win that much.  IIRC the base house edge of Blackjack is like 1% meaning for every 100 dollars gambled the player wins 99.. A card counter probably gets a 1% edge instead of the house .An edge is an edge of course but the main way card counters are caught is generally when you start eratically increasing or decreasing your bets on different hands. If it was just a simple reversal of the house edge the casino itself would never notice except for repeat players.

That's not the house's advantage, but anyway card counting isn't just playing the odds, and your bets wouldn't be that different hand to hand. What would happen is you'd bet the minimum for a long while and then start betting big once you've calculated that there are a favorable number of face cards left in the shoe. You certainly won't become a millionaire but you will win enough that it's worth it for casinos to pay security to stop you.

[DaleCooper]

To answer the question, it is cheating but it's not stealing. You're just beating the casino at its own game, and if they want to be a sore loser about it and kick you out then they're free to do that, but card counting is not and should never be illegal.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Regardless of whether card counting is cheating, can we all agree that its justified since the casino operators deserve to lose money?

In North Dakota, which is where I play Blackjack the most, the money is supposedly going to charity and not even to the bar (the bars just use it to attract people), so I guess there's an argument there. Of course there's the "supposedly" in where the money goes, and a lot of times it's going to "charity".

[lfromnj]

and, if memory serves, the casinos want people to think card counting is a thing*, it gets dumb, average and kind of smart people to convince themselves they can "beat the man" because they have a "system" and then dump thousands of dollars finding out they aren't as smart as they thought they were (or they just need a better "system").



*card counting is real, technically, but it's hard, boring and is certainly not a get rich quick scheme

Most card counters are easy to spot because they win too much, so they can get kicked out and blacklisted quickly. Most gamblers are not smart enough to card count, so they'll read about it online and then go to the casino and gamble away three payday loans worth of their income. It's a benefit for casinos if card counting gets romanticized or talked up.

And you're right. It is really hard. It takes a lot of practice and extremely fast thinking. There's a reason the card counters we hear about are always Harvard or MIT nerds.

They actually don't win that much.  IIRC the base house edge of Blackjack is like 1% meaning for every 100 dollars gambled the player wins 99.. A card counter probably gets a 1% edge instead of the house .An edge is an edge of course but the main way card counters are caught is generally when you start eratically increasing or decreasing your bets on different hands. If it was just a simple reversal of the house edge the casino itself would never notice except for repeat players.

Uh, I believe it's a statistical fact that the dealer will win a Blackjack hand 58% of the time. So that would imply that the player would not just lose a buck for every $100 bet.

Any search I have is that its 2%ish.  Isn't that the point of the 6:5 or 3:2 ratios to make it more even?

[lfromnj]

Honestly a more interesting debate would be if sharing card counter information between casinos is anti competitive/monopolistic. I'm actually fine with monopolies but I wonder if anyone thinks that it shouild be illegal.